Is Sheikh Nasrallah done and buried?

[Cosmic Yak]

For a start, pressure has not been continuous on Iran- look at the on-off sanctions. Then, there's that Yankee myopia again. You probably missed that the Chinese brokered a rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and Iran. The diplomatic pressure I had in mind included having both the Saudis and the Chinese using this agreement, and the promise of further improvements, as leverage on the Iranian government.
I note also you ignored my suggestion that pressure be placed on the governments of Iraq and Lebanon, to encourage them to reject Iranian attempts at meddling. This could be done by regional powers, not by the US as- and we can see that clearly here- Americans overestimate their own importance, and also their understanding of the Middle East, often with unfortunate consequences.

What you are proposing has literally failed for decades, and you are adding nothing new that you change that.

Please provide some evidence that China, Saudi Arabia and other regional powers have been applying pressure to Iraq and Lebanon for decades.
Bet you can't.

If you want to reject my ideas, fine- I really don't care. However, you should, in the interests of scepticism and honest debate, actually give some reasons and some basis for that rejection.
Furthermore, as you yourself have now rejected both military and non-military solutions, I would be (mildly) interested to know what your own suggested courses of action are.

I'm not rejecting your idea - reality is.

Bilge. Reality is not a member of this forum. It's you that's rejecting my ideas, not some Platonic ideal.

I made no mention of whose ideas they were. No need to get personal and- how do you Americans put it? Oh, yes- butthurt, about it. I criticised the ideas, not the person posting those ideas.

And please, please stop talking about this as if this is MY idea - I am continuing what another poster said.

I made no mention of whose ideas they were. No need to get personal and- how do you Americans put it? Oh, yes- butthurt, about it. I criticised the ideas, not the person posting those ideas.

I am not proposing anything, I am trying to get people to brainstorm, and think it is useful to point out when they go down well trodden dead ends.

Ah, I see. You have nothing to bring to the table yourself. Instead, you want to entice people to proffer suggestions so you can arbitrarily shoot them down, presumably as some sort of ego-stroking exercise. It may surprise you to learn that I have precisely zero interest assisting you in this. Get back to me when you feel like having the brainstorming session you claim to want.

You could start by responding in some meaningful way to the above, and to this:

You asked what I thought should be done, not what had already been done.
Furthermore, if you want to reject my suggestions, then it's on you to show that they are flawed. Have you checked that pressure has been applied yourself? Because you should.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Absolute bollocks.
Hezbollah launched rockets into Israel immediately after Hamas' October 7th attacks, to "support" those attacks. i.e., before Israel's retaliation in Gaza got going.
.

Incorrect.

Hezbollah fired rockets on October 8th AFTER Israel fired artillery shells and send an attack drone into Lebanon.
Israel did airstrikes in southern Lebanon on the 9th and Hezbollah again shot rockets.
Since then, Israel and Hezbollah have been trading fire more or less daily - Hezbollah might say it was to support Hamas, but it could just as easily say it was in retaliation to being attacked.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim...bollah_conflict_(8_October_–_23_November_2023)

 

[webfusion]

Incorrect.

Hezbollah fired rockets on October 8th AFTER Israel fired artillery shells and send an attack drone into Lebanon.
Israel did airstrikes in southern Lebanon on the 9th and Hezbollah again shot rockets.
Since then, Israel and Hezbollah have been trading fire more or less daily - Hezbollah might say it was to support Hamas, but it could just as easily say it was in retaliation to being attacked.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim...bollah_conflict_(8_October_–_23_November_2023)

The WIKI you offered specifically stated -- "In the morning of the 8th, Hezbollah fired rockets and shells at the Shebaa Farms region; the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in response, fired artillery shells and a drone into southern Lebanon"

In other words, you lied. (or didn't understand what was written in the article you presented)

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Incorrect.

Hezbollah fired rockets on October 8th AFTER Israel fired artillery shells and send an attack drone into Lebanon.
Israel did airstrikes in southern Lebanon on the 9th and Hezbollah again shot rockets.
Since then, Israel and Hezbollah have been trading fire more or less daily - Hezbollah might say it was to support Hamas, but it could just as easily say it was in retaliation to being attacked.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim...bollah_conflict_(8_October_–_23_November_2023)

The WIKI you offered specifically stated -- "In the morning of the 8th, Hezbollah fired rockets and shells at the Shebaa Farms region; the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in response, fired artillery shells and a drone into southern Lebanon"

In other words, you lied. (or didn't understand what was written in the article you presented)

webfusion: I was just about to point this out myself when I read your post. TGZ has properly shot himself in the foot. Again.
TGZ: were you aware that your own link gave the lie to your claim, and were hoping no-one would notice, or is there another reason why you posted something disproving your own argument?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

webfusion: I was just about to point this out myself when I read your post. TGZ has properly shot himself in the foot. Again.
TGZ: were you aware that your own link gave the lie to your claim, and were hoping no-one would notice, or is there another reason why you posted something disproving your own argument?

I am aware now - clearly didn't read it carefully enough.

you were correct, I was incorrect.

Please accept my apologies.

 

[webfusion]

The main issue here is "who started this fight?"

HAMAS uses the rationale that Israel, by virtue of its Zionist culture has "occupied" (stolen) the entire lands that are considered by the Islamic fundamentalists --- from Beirut to Yemen to Tehran to Gaza to Jenin to College Park, Md. --- as an integral part of the "umma" (Islamic World).

Their fight is not about specific parts or limited areas.
So long as Israel exists, they will consider it an affront to Islam, and act accordingly.
I read the HAMAS Charter (and subsequent 'revisions') and that's the bottom line.

The leaders of Israel (and be assured, there's more individuals involved with leading the country than only Bibi) are engaged currently in trying to get the Arabs surrounding Israel to stop fighting and start coordinating and cooperating. If they aren't getting that message (as succinctly delivered by Bibi in NYC last week, with diagrams and red markers, as is his style) then IDF will continue to pound the **** out of these fools until they DO get the message.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I am aware now - clearly didn't read it carefully enough.

you were correct, I was incorrect.

Please accept my apologies.

Apology accepted.

 

[Hercules56]

Absolute bollocks.
Hezbollah launched rockets into Israel immediately after Hamas' October 7th attacks, to "support" those attacks. i.e., before Israel's retaliation in Gaza got going.
I also doubt that Hezbollah had any choice in that: it is more likely they were ordered to attack by their masters in Tehran.
Your hatred of Israel and constant apologetics for terrorism are blinding you to reality. Get a grip.

I don't hate Israel or all Israelis. But I do hate ALL fascists and racists. Including Israeli fascists and racists, which you believe do not exist cause it's anti-Semitic to suggest so. And I do hate Israel's apartheid policies and war crimes which always continue during every single cease fire.

 

[Steve]

I don't hate Israel or all Israelis. But I do hate ALL fascists and racists. Including Israeli fascists and racists, which you believe do not exist cause it's anti-Semitic to suggest so. And I do hate Israel's apartheid policies and war crimes which always continue during every single cease fire.

Every time you do one of these mini rants the only people you actually name are Israelis. I have yet to see you direct, by name, equal venom at the racism, actions, and policies of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. Are we ever likely so see that?

 

[Ziggurat]

Every time you do one of these mini rants the only people you actually name are Israelis. I have yet to see you direct, by name, equal venom at the racism, actions, and policies of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. Are we ever likely so see that?

He might in response to such a prod, but never spontaneously.

 

[Hercules56]

Every time you do one of these mini rants the only people you actually name are Israelis. I have yet to see you direct, by name, equal venom at the racism, actions, and policies of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. Are we ever likely so see that?

I have called for Hamas to be charged with war crimes many times. You and others simply insist on ignoring this. I have also called for Hamas and others to stop attacking innocent civilians. You and others simply insist on ignoring this.

 

[Ziggurat]

I have called for Hamas to be charged with war crimes many times.

How? Seriously, how will you charge them with war crimes? In absentia? That matters not a whit. So how are you going to capture them to make them face justice?

There's only one way to do that, and that's by force. But you don't want Israel to do it, because you complain about what it actually takes to accomplish, and nobody else is willing to do it. Which makes your stance in practice indistinguishable from not wanting them to be charged with war crimes.

You and others simply insist on ignoring this.

I haven't ignored it at all. I have, in fact, noted how hollow and meaningless it is on multiple occasions.

 

[Hercules56]

How? Seriously, how will you charge them with war crimes? In absentia? That matters not a whit. So how are you going to capture them to make them face justice?

There's only one way to do that, and that's by force. But you don't want Israel to do it, because you complain about what it actually takes to accomplish, and nobody else is willing to do it. Which makes your stance in practice indistinguishable from not wanting them to be charged with war crimes.



I haven't ignored it at all. I have, in fact, noted how hollow and meaningless it is on multiple occasions.

More lies from you. (Shocker)

We simply disagree on how the leadership of Hamas should be brought to Justice, and how Hamas should be defeated.

I want to use an expert detailed surgeon while you want to use a blind Tyrannosaurus Rex.

You also refuse to condemn or even criticize Israel's decades long behavior of war crimes and discrimination, which is at the heart of the current conflict.

You have also expressed outright bigotry and hatred toward the Arab people and their culture, which obviously motivates most of your views on these issues.

 

[GlennB]

We simply disagree on how the leadership of Hamas should be brought to Justice, and how Hamas should be defeated.
...

Have you proposed a mechanism for bringing Hamas leaders to justice?

 

[Hercules56]

Have you proposed a mechanism for bringing Hamas leaders to justice?

Yep.

 

[GlennB]

Yep.

To save me trawling through the whole discussion, what was it?

 

[theprestige]

To save me trawling through the whole discussion, what was it?

IIRC it was something along the lines of, send small numbers of IDF on foot to clear the Strip block by block, tunnel mouth by tunnel mouth, without artillery support and without attacking any structure without first verifying that it contains only Hamas and no civilians.

Basically, do it on Hamas's terms, which are designed to maximize IDF casualties while eliminating any hope of IDF success.

 

[Hercules56]

To save me trawling through the whole discussion, what was it?

Use more troops on the ground rather than bombing the crap out of Gaza's civilian areas.

After Oct 7 Israel could have also pressed the Arab states to finally reign in Hamas. Instead they decided to go in like a vengeful blind Tyrannosaurus.

 

[Steve]

Use more troops on the ground rather than bombing the crap out of Gaza's civilian areas.

After Oct 7 Israel could have also pressed the Arab states to finally reign in Hamas. Instead they decided to go in like a vengeful blind Tyrannosaurus.

The "put more of your troops in danger" solution. Have you given any thought to why Israel might not favor that one? Or given any thought as to why Hamas built that extensive system of tunnels in Gaza?

And of course Arab states are always amenable to pressure from Israel.

Perhaps GlennB's question should have been "Have you proposed a realistic mechanism for bringing Hamas leaders to justice?"

 

[Ziggurat]

More lies from you. (Shocker)

We simply disagree on how the leadership of Hamas should be brought to Justice, and how Hamas should be defeated.

I want to use an expert detailed surgeon while you want to use a blind Tyrannosaurus Rex.

You want it done with pixie dust. No military operates the way you insist the IDF operates.

You also refuse to condemn or even criticize Israel's decades long behavior of war crimes and discrimination, which is at the heart of the current conflict.

Most of what you call war crimes are not war crimes at all, they're just war.

You have also expressed outright bigotry and hatred toward the Arab people and their culture, which obviously motivates most of your views on these issues.

Hatred? No, I did not express hatred. I expressed criticism, because it's warranted. Do you think there's not something wrong with homophobia? With extreme sexism? With religious intolerance? I probably don't think any worse of Arab culture than you do, I just have the temerity to say it out loud, and to recognize that it matters.

You remind me of women who say Lizzo is beautiful, but if you say they look like Lizzo, they'll take offense. The problem isn't really my opinion, the problem is my unwillingness to pretend.