Ed The JD Vance thread

[Gulliver Foyle]

Bits which are relevant lifted from it:

Trump’s running mate then suggested that US support for NATO should be used as a cudgel to get the Europeans in line.

“So what America should be saying is, if NATO wants us to continue supporting them and NATO wants us to continue to be a good participant in this military alliance, why don’t you respect American values and respect free speech?” Vance asked. “It’s insane that we would support a military alliance if that military alliance isn’t going to be pro-free speech. I think we can do both. But we’ve got to say American power comes with certain strings attached. One of those is respect free speech, especially in our European allies.”

“I’m not going to go to some backwoods country and tell them how to live their lives,” Vance added. “But European countries should theoretically share American values, especially about some very basic things like free speech.”

Thanks. I really dislike the independent site ever since the son of a current FSB agent Evgeny Lebedev took it over using money his father got from his associations with Putain and turned it into a sludge clickbait operation.

 

[Darat]

Bits which are relevant lifted from it:

Trump’s running mate then suggested that US support for NATO should be used as a cudgel to get the Europeans in line.

“So what America should be saying is, if NATO wants us to continue supporting them and NATO wants us to continue to be a good participant in this military alliance, why don’t you respect American values and respect free speech?” Vance asked. “It’s insane that we would support a military alliance if that military alliance isn’t going to be pro-free speech. I think we can do both. But we’ve got to say American power comes with certain strings attached. One of those is respect free speech, especially in our European allies.”

“I’m not going to go to some backwoods country and tell them how to live their lives,” Vance added. “But European countries should theoretically share American values, especially about some very basic things like free speech.”

He wants most of them to reduce their citizens’ free speech to match the suppression of the USA? https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-freedom-of-speech

 

[Minoosh]

He converted to Catholicism in 2019, two years before he began his 2021 run for Congress. He's a convert from atheism to a philosophically conservative church and converts tend to be the most extreme adherents.

They may line up with Catholics on certain conservative issues, but many evangelicals don't even consider Catholics "Christians."

And the Catholic Church also holds, or used to hold, some liberal positions as well - such as being against capital punishment, and rather forgiving of immigrants including the illegal variety.

 

[Armitage72]

They may line up with Catholics on certain conservative issues, but many evangelicals don't even consider Catholics "Christians."

Jack Chick may have created almost as many tracts attacking Catholics as he did atheists and assorted "heathens". My favorite was "The Death Cookie", revealing the hidden evils behind Communion.

 

[arthwollipot]

They may line up with Catholics on certain conservative issues, but many evangelicals don't even consider Catholics "Christians."

My kind of evangelical considered Catholics literally Satanists and the Pope the Antichrist.

 

[marting]

My kind of evangelical considered Catholics literally Satanists and the Pope the Antichrist.

I recall my mother commenting that her mother, a Babtist in South Carolina, forbid her to marry a Catholic preferring another Baptist. Even marrying a Jew was acceptable. Just not a Catholic. She wound up marrying an atheist. They eloped and moved North to DC.

I was born in DC but grew up in Mass. Mostly Catholics there but a few protestants. Odd thing there was the friction between the Irish and Italian Catholics. Not sure why. I stayed out of it.

 

[Darat]

My kind of evangelical considered Catholics literally Satanists and the Pope the Antichrist.

Pretty much the case with my lot. It’s still a very common attitude in places like Northern Ireland.

 

[zooterkin]

They may line up with Catholics on certain conservative issues, but many evangelicals don't even consider Catholics "Christians."

<snip>

The reverse is pretty much true, too. Catholic churches don't allow non-Catholics to take Mass, while most Anglican and Non-Conformist churches are more open.

 

[gabeygoat]

I was a catholic kid and many protestants told me I wasn't Christian and that I worshipped Mary

 

[marting]

I was a catholic kid and many protestants told me I wasn't Christian and that I worshipped Mary

When I was 7ish y/o, the kids in the next apartment were catholic. I envied them because they did cool church things, got time off from school for church stuff, and had fish on Fridays. We also had a lot of fun playing together. I never ran across any hostility to catholics growing up.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The reverse is pretty much true, too. Catholic churches don't allow non-Catholics to take Mass, while most Anglican and Non-Conformist churches are more open.

Because of the Catholic belief in transubstantiation. To a Protestant, giving a Catholic communion is just symbolic. To a Catholic, giving a Protestant communion is letting sacrilege occur.

 

[Darat]

I was a catholic kid and many protestants told me I wasn't Christian and that I worshipped Mary

Heretics all of you, you will burn in everlasting agony*




*but god still loves you, sort of.

 

[acbytesla]

The reverse is pretty much true, too. Catholic churches don't allow non-Catholics to take Mass, while most Anglican and Non-Conformist churches are more open.

You mean communion.

 

[catsmate]

The reverse is pretty much true, too. Catholic churches don't allow non-Catholics to take Mass, while most Anglican and Non-Conformist churches are more open.

Catholic churches don't allow non-Catholics, and Catholics not in a 'state of Grace's to receive communion. They can attend the ceremony.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I was a catholic kid and many protestants told me I wasn't Christian and that I worshipped Mary

Catholic theology is pretty straightforward: Mary is simply the mightiest of the Sailor Senshi charged with protecting Jesus and God from their enemies. As captain of the squad, Mary wields water-based magic and can do everything from cast spears of ice to cloaking mists to healing waters. Her ultimate attack is the Thunderbolt Tsunami and it's as deadly as it sounds, even Star-Princess Satan doesn't want to get in the direct path of that one! You can read more about it in the manga edition of the Vulgate Bible.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I mean not to start the hijack of all hijacks but Mary is pretty much a minor God in everything but name in Catholicism, which with the Trinity and all the Saints is already pushing the definition of "monotheistic" pretty much to the breaking point.

 

[Ladewig]

My kind of evangelical considered Catholics literally Satanists and the Pope the Antichrist.

I stumbled across an author recently who was worried that MAGAs might come to look at Democrats as literal Satanists trying to destroy both Christianity and America.

If that happens things will get a lot worse..

And sadly, there is nothing that can be said to walk them back from the edge.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I mean not to start the hijack of all hijacks but Mary is pretty much a minor God in everything but name in Catholicism, which with the Trinity and all the Saints is already pushing the definition of "monotheistic" pretty much to the breaking point.

In historical mythology terms, Mary is early Christianity's compromise with the other religions in the Roman empire to get a female aspect of the divine into the mix because the all-male godhood thing wasn't playing well to the wider audience.

But in theological psychology terms, Mary is venerated as the prime "intercessor" -- she's the best of the humans, but still human, and very, very nice and therefore she's the prime candidate for talking Jesus and God around if you're a (Catholic) human in need of special favor. Appealing to Mary is less direct and scary and presumptuous than asking God directly; and as she's Jesus's actual mom she has significant pull with that guy. God talks about smiting, Jesus is really hung up on salvation and good works yada yada, but Mary's a sweet lady who understands and will put in a good word for you. She's everything good you could want in an ideal mother.

Catholics don't worship Mary, they just treat her nicely because she's got influence.

eta: Imagine you live in a city totally run by the Mafia, and the head mob boss's mom is a friend of your family. You're going to treat her nicely, right? Send her flowers, offer to wash her car, mow her lawn, yeah? She's not in the business herself but you're not an idiot.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't split hairs that much. If you have a shrine to something in your entryway you're worshipping it for all but the most pointlessly pedantic "well ackshuallies."

If you prescribe supernatural agency to something, believe you can communicate with it to curry favor or ask for divine intervention, it's worship.

If you bury a statue of St. Whoever (I forget which one) on your property to help you sell your house or travel with a St. Christopher medallion "for good luck" then I'm comfortable calling those acts worship even if the people doing them categorize them more as superstition.

There's SOME nuance in there I'll grant and yes some of this is semantics, but not a lot.

Like real talk. If your average Catholic saw a TV special with like a tribal person in the jungle reacting to one of their mythical figures EXACTLY like how they react to Mary, they would call that worship.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't split hairs that much. If you have a shrine to something in your entryway you're worshipping it for all but the most pointlessly pedantic "well ackshuallies."

If you prescribe supernatural agency to something, believe you can communicate with it to curry favor or ask for divine intervention, it's worship.

If you bury a statue of St. Whoever (I forget which one) on your property to help you sell your house or travel with a St. Christopher medallion "for good luck" then I'm comfortable calling those acts worship even if the people doing them categorize them more as superstition.

There's SOME nuance in there I'll grant and yes some of this is semantics, but not a lot.

Like real talk. If your average Catholic saw a TV special with like a tribal person in the jungle reacting to one of their mythical figures EXACTLY like how they react to Mary, they would call that worship.

Then it's probably good that you're not a practicing Catholic. The subtleties of faith aren't for everyone. And I will pray to St Egnothuszleus of Brezsichevtlavet that you may peace, my son. If he could perform the miracle of turning fish-heads into flowers (it made sense in the situation) then surely he can lead you to wisdom! *saintly hawk screech*