General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Leumas]

The Jews of Europe were not simply Germans, Italians, Russians, French, etc who happened to practise the Jewish religion.

History and genetic research shows us a very different story.

Ashkenazi Jews are for the most part descended from Israelites who headed north and west from Palestine after the Romans destroyed Judea in AD 135. Some converts from Europe were brought in but that all ended when the Christians strarted passing strong laws banning Jews from taking on converts, forcing them into ghettos, banning from owning lands, farms, property and jobs for most Jews. Basically due to Christian bigoted laws the Jews of Europe became a nation inside a nation. Situation was basically the same in North Africa and the Middle East.

Leumas and others talk like the Jews of Europe are literally just Europeans who converted to Judaism over the centuries. Its historical-revisionism and dishonest propaganda.

The above are PERFIDIOUS ZIONIST MYTHS just like the NAZI myths they fabricated for themselves as being Übermenschen descendants of Atlantians.


Let me remind you of a FACT... the Sumerian peripatetic PIMP was as much of a real guy as Kal El.

And thus... this myth of "jews as a race" is a myth just as the myth of the Exodus.

The only real thing is that there were simpleton HUMANS who followed religious MYTHS and FABLES and FAIRY TALES of various kinds and who were HUMANS just like all the other humans from the places they were born on.

All humans are a mixture of humans... there are no and never were Übermenschen the product of 12 mythical Sumerian men the great-grandchildren of a mythical Sumerian pimp inbreeding with their sisters and mothers for centuries while also being slaves in Egypt.

Get that... impossible fairy tales like a man shooting laser out of his eyes and a man parting the sea and so on are all CHILDISH IDIOTIC fables.

 

[Hercules56]

There is a case to be made about the legality of those Jewish homesteads in Judea and Samaria, as well as the incorporation/reunification of the Jerusalem municipalty.
If the case ever comes in front of an international justice tribunal (ICJ or ICC) then the matter can be adjudicated and a determination made regarding what rights Israel retains under international laws to have facilitated the voluntary residents of the towns, villages, farms and cities over the defunct 'ceasefire lines' of 1949.
Same as Gaza, when some brave Jews in the last century realized that there was no good reason to exclude us from the coastal salient (where our synagogues and homes had stood, before being overrun by marauding Bedouins or whomever). Those people had to vacate their beautiful homes and synagogues, in the face of Palestinian armed attacks.

I do know the ICJ and ICC are considering what to do about the matter being raised by Palestinians that declare Israel needs to be prosecuted over 'the settlements'

Israel does not recognize the ICJ or ICC, so any rulings they make regarding the illegal Lebensraum colonies will obviously be ignored.

 

[Leumas]

And btw, Jews faced lots of violence and discrimination over the years under Muslim rule in Muslim lands. It was not all hunky doree until Zionism came along. Such an idea is more dishonest propaganda.

Yes... there are always religious MORONS who in the name of their FAIRY TALES would do imbecilic and idiotic things to the ones who do not subscribe to the same fairy tales....

So what... does that give the followers of one version of fairy tales the right to Ethnically Cleanse and genocide and confine in concentration camps the OTHERS?

Just like the NAZIS did?


But... yet again and again you seem to very deliberately ignore FACTS that are inconvenient to your narrative.

In 1945, roughly 1 million Jews lived peacefully in the various Arab states of the Middle East, many of them in communities that had existed for thousands of years.

 

[Hercules56]

Yes... there are always religious MORONS who in the name of their FAIRY TALES would do imbecilic and idiotic things to the ones who do not subscribe to the same fairy tales....

So what... does that give the followers of one version of fairy tales the right to Ethnically Cleanse and genocide and confine in concentration camps the OTHERS?

Just like the NAZIS did?


But... yet again and again you seem to very deliberately ignore FACTS that are inconvenient to your narrative.

Are you dishonestly claiming that before 1945 the Jews in Muslim lands never faced violence and bigoted discrimination?

 

[Nessie]

You seem to think they have an obligation to tell you their plan.

They do not.

It would be sensible to tell the Palestinian people of Gaza what the plan is.

 

[theprestige]

It would be sensible to tell the Palestinian people of Gaza what the plan is.

It would be even more sensible to not tell Hamas what the plan is, don't you think?

 

[Leumas]

Yes... there are always religious MORONS who in the name of their FAIRY TALES would do imbecilic and idiotic things to the ones who do not subscribe to the same fairy tales....

So what... does that give the followers of one version of fairy tales the right to Ethnically Cleanse and genocide and confine in concentration camps the OTHERS?

Just like the NAZIS did?


But... yet again and again you seem to very deliberately ignore FACTS that are inconvenient to your narrative.

Are you dishonestly claiming that before 1945 the Jews in Muslim lands never faced violence and bigoted discrimination?

No you are dishonestly claiming that I am claiming that and dishonestly calling it my dishonesty when it is clearly yours as arrantly evinced by my post that you dishonestly strawmanned


Here have a look at the extent of dishonesty of the strawmanning...

Yes... there are always religious MORONS who in the name of their FAIRY TALES would do imbecilic and idiotic things to the ones who do not subscribe to the same fairy tales....

So what... does that give the followers of one version of fairy tales the right to Ethnically Cleanse and genocide and confine in concentration camps the OTHERS?

Just like the NAZIS did?


But... yet again and again you seem to very deliberately ignore FACTS that are inconvenient to your narrative.

 

[webfusion]

Israel does not recognize the ICJ or ICC, so any rulings they make regarding the illegal Lebensraum colonies will obviously be ignored.

You're getting slightly ahead of things, and making predictions that have little to no foundations.

Israel is not a signatory to the ICC-creating (1998/2002) Rome Treaty (neither is the USA).
However, if there was an opportunity to present objective exculpatory evidence and achieve a victory at the court bench, that might be worthwhile for Israel's legal eagles to pursue, regardless of the 'recognition' that Israel denies the ICC formally. It is my impression that Israel's well-founded legal arguments are based on International Laws and the underlying reasoning for the 4thGC references to transfers of populations into occupied territories ("by force" is the key term). None of the settlers were forced to move, they did so for their own reasons, and of their own free wills.

By the way, where did the idea come from that these communities could not accommodate 'natural growth' of their populations, just as any other community worldwide? (See: Lakewood, NJ)

 

[Hercules56]

You're getting slightly ahead of things, and making predictions that have little to no foundations.

Israel is not a signatory to the ICC-creating (1998/2002) Rome Treaty (neither is the USA).
However, if there was an opportunity to present objective exculpatory evidence and achieve a victory at the court bench, that might be worthwhile for Israel's legal eagles to pursue, regardless of the 'recognition' that Israel denies the ICC formally. It is my impression that Israel's well-founded legal arguments are based on International Laws and the underlying reasoning for the 4thGC references to transfers of populations into occupied territories ("by force" is the key term). None of the settlers were forced to move, they did so for their own reasons, and of their own free wills.

By the way, where did the idea come from that these communities could not accommodate 'natural growth' of their populations, just as any other community worldwide? (See: Lakewood, NJ)

Its debatable whether or not force is required for the transfer to be illegal.

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."


If the Lebensraum settlement is illegal in all forms, then natural growth is also illegal.

The next question is: are military operations of resistance legal against the illegal Lebensraum settlers? I'd say if the Lebensraum settlement was built upon land that was seized under a military order for security purposes, the answer might be yes.

 

[Nessie]

It would be even more sensible to not tell Hamas what the plan is, don't you think?

I am not talking about anything military. I am talking about what peace looks like, post Hamas.

 

[webfusion]

Its debatable whether or not force is required for the transfer to be illegal.
"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

If the Lebensraum settlement is illegal in all forms, then natural growth is also illegal.

And the opposite is also true, if the Jewish homesteads and formalized communities are legitimate (and your reading of the GC4 is not the definitive say-so on that).

The GC-4 was predicated and created due to the transfers by force in wartime and if you look at other similar references to this subject within the Articles, it's clear that the forced-transfer or deportation was prohibited.
The only debate is inside your head. When actual Judges sit to hear the case (should it ever reach that far, Dog forbid) they'll easily understand the context of applicability of GC4 and provide their blessings for Jews to continue living in the suburbs of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and along the Jordan Valley, and in and around Hebron, and in many other quiet communities dotting the hillsides.

The next question is: are military operations of resistance legal against the illegal Lebensraum settlers? I'd say if the Lebensraum settlement was built upon land that was seized under a military order for security purposes, the answer might be yes.

As we occupy it, then we'll provide security for the inhabitants. Nobody is eligible to attack the duly constituted Armed Forces of the State of Israel, period.
If you want to see IDF go to war against those who dare to harm us, then poke the bear. Watch the result. (see: Tulkarem today)

 

[Hercules56]

And the opposite is also true, if the Jewish homesteads and formalized communities are legitimate (and your reading of the GC4 is not the definitive say-so on that).

The GC-4 was predicated and created due to the transfers by force in wartime and if you look at other similar references to this subject within the Articles, it's clear that the forced-transfer or deportation was prohibited.
The only debate is inside your head. When actual Judges sit to hear the case (should it ever reach that far, Dog forbid) they'll easily understand the context of applicability of GC4 and provide their blessings for Jews to continue living in the suburbs of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and along the Jordan Valley, and in and around Hebron, and in many other quiet communities dotting the hillsides.



As we occupy it, then we'll provide security for the inhabitants. Nobody is eligible to attack the duly constituted Armed Forces of the State of Israel, period.
If you want to see IDF go to war against those who dare to harm us, then poke the bear. Watch the result. (see: Tulkarem today)

I believe the ICJ had already issued an advisory opinion that the Lebensraum colonies in Arab Palestine (the West Bank) are illegal. And much of the Separation Barrier had been built in order to protect illegal colonies.

 

[webfusion]

I believe the ICJ had already issued an advisory opinion that the Lebensraum colonies in Arab Palestine (the West Bank) are illegal. And much of the Separation Barrier had been built in order to protect illegal colonies.

What does that even mean, "I believe" ?? Could you at least do some light lifting and retrieve a supporting document for that claim?

I found only this -- https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186
"Public hearings to open on Monday 19 February 2024"

Yer darn tootin' that barrier was constructed to prevent attacks against our communities (and even stop infiltrators into TelAviv strapped with suicide vests, taking shortcuts through the fields to bypass checkposts).

IIRC, the barrier along the outskirts of Gilo was one such precaution, and when the danger subsided from snipers, the IDF dismantled the thing.
It's easy enough to take those walls down, with cranes to lift the concrete sections away.
Maybe one day... in'sh'allah.

 

[Ziggurat]

It would be sensible to tell the Palestinian people of Gaza what the plan is.

No it wouldn't, not at this stage.

 

[webfusion]

Bloomberg media has published a detailed article regarding the "What's Next?" conundrum.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...ll-happen-in-gaza-after-israel-s-war-on-hamas

The more that we see what Gaza has become, the more we'll realize how vital it is to implement a NewState resolution.

When this war is over, the Palestinian refugees, in Lebanon, Jordan, Westbank, e.Jerusalem, Syria, all of them are going to be invited to start moving, en-mass, to Gaza and a chunk of n.Sinai, and start calling it "FreePalestine"

Israel is ten-million going into 2025.
NewState FreePalestine in Gaza/Sinai would also number by then about the same, 10-million, and growing!

 

[Hercules56]

What does that even mean, "I believe" ?? Could you at least do some light lifting and retrieve a supporting document for that claim?

I found only this -- https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186
"Public hearings to open on Monday 19 February 2024"

Yer darn tootin' that barrier was constructed to prevent attacks against our communities (and even stop infiltrators into TelAviv strapped with suicide vests, taking shortcuts through the fields to bypass checkposts).

IIRC, the barrier along the outskirts of Gilo was one such precaution, and when the danger subsided from snipers, the IDF dismantled the thing.
It's easy enough to take those walls down, with cranes to lift the concrete sections away.
Maybe one day... in'sh'allah.

ICJ advisory opinion is pretty damn clear that Israel has every right to build a barrier along the 1949 lines which are recognized by the United Nations as its legal border.

The problem is that the barrier was instead built to protect many illegal Lebensraum communities built inside Arab Palestine. Basically the barrier is being used as a de facto means of annexation, to expand the boundaries of Israel, without applying Israeli law onto the new land. For all intents and purposes, all land west of the separation barrier has been annexed by Israel.

 

[webfusion]

The barrier twists and turns, over 400 miles of length, through some very inhospitable terrain, and only 15% runs with the defunct Green Line. How did those arbitrary cease-fire lines suddenly become "Internationally-Recognized Borders"?
You stated that "the 1949 lines which are recognized by the United Nations as its legal border."
So, when did this occur?

I'm curious, because as far as I know, only the 1949 Rhodes Armistice (military separation-of-forces Agreement) was in effect as of June6th, 1967, and Israel unilaterally breeched them with regards to Syria (Golan) & Egypt (Gaza/Sinai) -- and then Jordan (westbank), after the King decided to enter the war.

What other documents state that the Green Line is now an International Border?
(The Rhodes Agreements say otherwise, in plain English)

 

[Hercules56]

The barrier twists and turns, over 400 miles of length, through some very inhospitable terrain, and only 15% runs with the defunct Green Line. How did those arbitrary cease-fire lines suddenly become "Internationally-Recognized Borders"?
You stated that "the 1949 lines which are recognized by the United Nations as its legal border."
So, when did this occur?

I'm curious, because as far as I know, only the 1949 Rhodes Armistice (military separation-of-forces Agreement) was in effect as of June6th, 1967, and Israel unilaterally breeched them with regards to Syria (Golan) & Egypt (Gaza/Sinai) -- and then Jordan (westbank), after the King decided to enter the war.

What other documents state that the Green Line is now an International Border?
(The Rhodes Agreements say otherwise, in plain English)

The 1949 Armistice line in the West Bank, is the limit of Israeli legal sovereignity. Beyond that is Occupied Territory, according to the Israeli Supreme Court.

....which is still a valid court, even though Netanyahu and his Likudfuhrers want to destroy it.

 

[Leumas]

Ah the egregious lies of Zionist Jihadists

The in your face out in the open lies of the Zionist Jihadists are so clear to see for anyone with the slightest iota of morality and sanity and decency and humanity left in them.

Watch this video to see what NINE YEARS AGO was already OPENLY declared as the plan for a FINAL SOLUTION Nazi Style that the terrorist organization called the Likud Party, had in plans for Gaza.

NINE YEARS AGO... this was aired openly...

Why would anyone who has a modicum of humanity or morality or decency or sanity continue to subscribe to the Zionist Jihadists' lies and deceptions today in 2023 given the clear and irrefutable HISTORY of the chicanery and skullduggery and perfidy and inhumanity of the Zionist Settler Colonialist Project?




And then we have the GENOCIDE being executed in order to do the Final Mowing of the Lawn... that was outlined 9 years ago... and yet another LONG RUNNING open in your face lie is being exploited to dupe the inhumane supporters of GENOCIDE...

 

[Hercules56]

Dismissed.