General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[theprestige]

I'm trying to find a way to describe a level of argumentative dishonesty and hopelessness greater then "Prove to me that the Muslim world is hostile toward Jews" and I'm coming up empty.

"The Holocaust is a hoax and the Jews had it coming", probably.

 

[Leumas]

I'm trying to find a way to describe a level of argumentative dishonesty and hopelessness greater then "Prove to me that the Muslim world is hostile toward Jews" and I'm coming up empty.

Read the above quoted post and your search will be rewarded.

And if that is not enough for you... read the quoted post below...

"The Holocaust is a hoax and the Jews had it coming", probably.

 

[Hercules56]

Yup... that is what the South African Afrikaans Settler Colonialists used to say too.




A homeless guy comes to the house of a family and kills the father and mother and kicks the children out to become themselves homeless...

Then inhabits the house...

Then spends the next few decades with the help of his brother the policeman to criminalize and demonize the "homeless" children trying to take their house back.

Then starts crying and sobbing that he is surrounded by hostile criminals hell bent on annihilating him and denying his rights to his house.

Did the homeless guy have a deep historical and spiritual connection to the home, and had been legally settling in to the home slowly but surely over the previous 50 years? Did the homeless guy live in the home off and on over the previous 2,000 years? Did the international community agree that the homeless guy had a right to shared possession of the home? Did the other tenants of the home, reject the will of the international community and decide to try to kill the homeless guy after he moved in in order to share the home with the other tenants? Did the neighbors of the home repeatedly threaten to kill the homeless guy after he became a permanent tenant of the home, even though the home was still being shared with the original tenants and the homeless guy kept asking for peace?

Never forget that if the Arabs just called it a day and made peace with Israel in 1949, the West Bank and Gaza would be a thriving Arab state, as envisioned in UNGA 181.

 

[Leumas]

Did the homeless guy have a deep historical and spiritual connection to the home,

No he did not... but he lied and repeatedly did so to the point of duping people into repeating it for him too.


Just like the Nazis lied about being Übermenschen descended from Atlantians.

 

[Hercules56]

No he did not... but he lied and repeatedly did so to the point of duping people into repeating it for him too..

The Jews do not have a longstanding historical and spiritual link with the land of Israel? Jews have not always lived in Palestine, around Jerusalem and the Galilee region for the last 2,000 years? The Jews were not legally moving in to Palestine with the consent of the Turks and then the British since the 1880s? The Jews were not the majority of the population of Jerusalem since the 1890s?

Seems someone forgot a little history.

 

[Hercules56]

You are arrantly mistaken? (and this one... and this one)

Communist groups targeted civilians, not "Jewish groups". They were crazy and such acts are criminal. Innocent civilians could have been killed in such attacks. Only attacks on occupying military forces are moral and legal, and the Jewish resistance did not target civilians. Why? Cuz Jews are moral people who know that its a sin to target innocent civilians.

 

[Leumas]

Did the homeless guy have a deep historical and spiritual connection to the home, and had been legally settling in to the home slowly but surely over the previous 50 years? Did the homeless guy live in the home off and on over the previous 2,000 years? Did the international community agree that the homeless guy had a right to shared possession of the home? Did the other tenants of the home, reject the will of the international community and decide to try to kill the homeless guy after he moved in in order to share the home with the other tenants? Did the neighbors of the home repeatedly threaten to kill the homeless guy after he became a permanent tenant of the home, even though the home was still being shared with the original tenants and the homeless guy kept asking for peace?

Never forget that if the Arabs just called it a day and made peace with Israel in 1949, the West Bank and Gaza would be a thriving Arab state, as envisioned in UNGA 181.

I think these guys belie the above Zionist Jihadist lie best.




European christians fleeing persecution by other European christians went and become Settler Colonialists in the Americas... and also fabricated myths like the Zionist myths mentioned in the above quoted statements to justify their crimes.

They also claimed myths as their DIVINE RIGHTS to ethnically cleanse and genocide the autochthonous natives of the Americas... just as the European Zionist Settler Colonialist are doing in Palestine.

Manifest destiny

Was a cultural belief in the 19th-century United States that White American settlers were destined to expand across North America.

There were three basic tenets to the concept:

1. The inherent superiority of the American people and their institutions
2. The mission of the United States to redeem and remake the West in the image of the agrarian East
3. An irresistible destiny to accomplish this essential duty

...

Manifest destiny ... was used by Democrats in the 1840s to justify the Mexican–American War and to negotiate the Oregon boundary dispute.
...

By 1843, former U.S. President John Quincy Adams, originally a major supporter of the concept underlying manifest destiny, had changed his mind and repudiated expansionism because it meant the expansion of slavery in Texas.

 

[Hercules56]

I think these guys belie the above Zionist Jihadist lie best.




European christians fleeing persecution by other European christians went and become Settler Colonialists in the Americas... and also fabricated myths like the Zionist myths mentioned in the above quoted statements to justify their crimes.

European Christians fleeing persecution, which was a VERY small minority of settlers in the USA, had no historical or spiritual connection to the New World.

On the contrary, Jews have always lived in Palestine, never stopped living in Palestine. There were always tens of thousands there. They became the majority of Jerusalem in the 1890s. Then tens of thousands started migrating to Palestine with the approval of the Ottomans and then hundreds of thousands more with the consent of the British and the UN.

900,000 Jews moved to Israel from neighboring Muslim and Arab states. These are not "European colonists" as you like to put it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And for the third time:

Unless you're squatting in the Olduvai Gorge with a 23&Me print out the traces your lineage directly back to Lucy what person living anywhere has the kind of "right" to a piece of land being hairsplit here?

I'm going to hazard a guess that the number of people alive today actually living in some place with a direct lineage to some far ancient ancestor in any open and honest sense of the term is not that many. As I've asked many times and gotten no answer what country WOULD be "valid" country under this line of discourse.

The country of Iraq is exactly as old as the Polaroid Camera, the Parking Meter, and the Radio Telescope, and nobody is questioning Iraq's right to exist over it.

Humanity has been breaking for the horizon to see what's over the next hill literally since before we were human and we've migrated/been displaced constantly since then. Using "Okay but did a goat herder with your DNA live on this exact spot a bajillion years ago?" as some moral/legal/international diplomacy standard now seem weird at best.

And again are we talking Israel and Palestine as modern city-states or as ancient tribal homelands? These are not the same thing.

Yet again so nobody (at)s me yes it's absurd in 2023 that a country with the stated reason for existence is to serve as a homeland for a specific religious group exists and Israel's continuing existence (in the sense of how it's organized as a nation-state politically and diplomatically not in the "wipe it off the face of the Earth" sense) DOES need to be predicated on it dropping that part of its identity but like all criticisms of Israel that applies to a lot of Muslims countries even more.

If Saudi Arabia gets to have Mecca, a place that literally bans non-Muslims from existing inside it, Israel can be a "Jewish Country" where only 3/4s of the population is actually Jewish. Israel is only about 10% more Jewish then American is Christian.

 

[Leumas]

Seems someone forgot a little history.

Seems someone gets his "history" from myths and fairy tales.

The Jews do not have a longstanding historical and spiritual link with the land of Israel?

Judaism does... so unfortunately does Christianity... in fact if anything... according to the fairy tales... Judaism was a rapine and colonialism of Palestine while Christianity is the ONLY native to Palestine.

Jews are not a race... you have your myths and reality mixed up... basically because you are reading fairy tales as if they were real history.

Do you think European Christians have the right to ethnically cleanse and wrench the farms of Palestinians who are not Christian?

Jews have not always lived in Palestine, around Jerusalem and the Galilee region for the last 2,000 years?

Palestinian followers of Judaism... yes... but not European followers of Judaism.... much less Indians and Africans and Arabs and Russians.

Again you are wrongly thinking of Judaism as a RACE... just like NAZIS thought of NAZISM as a race too.

[imgw=300]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512825407eaff11cfe.jpg[/imgw]

[imgw=300]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512825407ecdedae7e.jpg[/imgw]

[imgw=300]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512825407f70112e27.jpg[/imgw]​

The Jews were not legally moving in to Palestine with the consent of the Turks and then the British since the 1880s?

So what... Europeans buying property in Palestine does not give them the rights to Ethnically Cleanse and Genocide other owners of the other properties.

Do you think if the Chinese and Japanese bought property in America that gives them the right to Ethnically Cleanse Americans?

The Jews were not the majority of the population of Jerusalem since the 1890s?

No they were not... but... so what even if they were??

Does the majority black population of Detroit have the right to ethnically cleanse and demolish the houses of the white minority to make Detroit exclusively black?

Seems someone forgot a little history.

Nope... seems someone does not know what human rights are nor what reality is let alone real history.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Why does anyone bother talking with Leumas? It's utterly pointless.

 

[Hercules56]

And for the third time:

Unless you're squatting in the Olduvai Gorge with a 23&Me print out the traces your lineage directly back to Lucy what person living anywhere has the kind of "right" to a piece of land being hairsplit here?

I'm going to hazard a guess that the number of people alive today actually living in some place with a direct lineage to some far ancient ancestor in any open and honest sense of the term is not that many. As I've asked many times and gotten no answer what country WOULD be "valid" country under this line of discourse.

The country of Iraq is exactly as old as the Polaroid Camera, the Parking Meter, and the Radio Telescope, and nobody is questioning Iraq's right to exist over it.

Humanity has been breaking for the horizon to see what's over the next hill literally since before we were human and we've migrated/been displaced constantly since then. Using "Okay but did a goat herder with your DNA live on this exact spot a bajillion years ago?" as some moral/legal/international diplomacy standard now seem weird at best.

And again are we talking Israel and Palestine as modern city-states or as ancient tribal homelands? These are not the same thing.

Yet again so nobody (at)s me yes it's absurd in 2023 that a country with the stated reason for existence is to serve as a homeland for a specific religious group exists and Israel's continuing existence (in the sense of how it's organized as a nation-state politically and diplomatically not in the "wipe it off the face of the Earth" sense) DOES need to be predicated on it dropping that part of its identity but like all criticisms of Israel that applies to a lot of Muslims countries even more.

If Saudi Arabia gets to have Mecca, a place that literally bans non-Muslims from existing inside it, Israel can be a "Jewish Country" where only 3/4s of the population is actually Jewish. Israel is only about 10% more Jewish then American is Christian.

Its 2023 not 1947, so this whole debate about the validity of Zionism and letting millions of Jews settle there and make their country is a little bit of a moot point.

However for fun and games, its a little silly to make believe the Jews have no historical and religious connection to the land. Their culture and history originates there. They had a country there for more than a thousand years. Even after the Romans destroyed it the Jews never stopped living there and moved around the area, but most Jews never lived more than 1,000 miles away. They became the majority of Jerusalem again in the 1890s and started settling again there in massive numbers with the consent of the Ottomans and British. Hell the Jews even were in charge of defending Haifa against the European Christian invaders during the 1st Crusades.

 

[Hercules56]

....Jews are not a race... you have your myths and reality mixed up... basically because you are reading fairy tales as if they were real history. .......

I never claimed Jews were a race, as such an idea is absurd.

But the Jews have a very long historical and religious connection to Palestine. Its absurd to deny this, bordering on dishonest propaganda.

 

[webfusion]

I keep seeing a discussion raging around the following quoted postulation (Leumas offered it)
-- With a hat-tip to MarkCorrigan, you're probably correct! --

A homeless guy comes to the house of a family and kills the father and mother and kicks the children out to become themselves homeless...

Then inhabits the house...

Then spends the next few decades with the help of his brother the policeman Jordanian Legionairre to criminalize and demonize the "homeless" children trying to take their house back.

Then starts crying and sobbing that he is surrounded by hostile criminals hell bent on annihilating him and denying his rights to his house.

I had to blink twice at that one. For a quick second I thought the description fit perfectly to describe the Jews of Hebron, from Time Immemorial. Their homes, possessions, lives, and synagogues, all wiped out by raging Palestinians. In the previous century, I know it's a long time ago, 1929 to be exact.

and during the next few decades...

We gratefully saw when the State of Israel, after regaining some semblance of civil control over Hebron (1967) allowed some brave Jewish families to return to these previously-owned-by-Jews' homes. Where they still live today, protected by the IDF in a tightly-interwoven sector of this major Palestinian city. They represent a micro-cosm of what Israel faces in the way of violent militant threats.
Illegal settlers? Rubbish.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Why does anyone bother talking with Leumas? It's utterly pointless.

1. Because all the other Hamas apologists got scared away and so he's the only one talking.

2. We're talking AT Leumas, not with him.

 

[Hercules56]

I keep seeing a discussion raging around the following quoted postulation (Leumas offered it)

A homeless guy comes to the house of a family and kills the father and mother and kicks the children out to become themselves homeless...

Then inhabits the house...

Then spends the next few decades with the help of his brother the policeman Jordanian Legionairre to criminalize and demonize the "homeless" children trying to take their house back.

Then starts crying and sobbing that he is surrounded by hostile criminals hell bent on annihilating him and denying his rights to his house.

I had to blink twice at that one. For a quick second I thought the description fit perfectly to describe the Jews of Hebron, from Time Immemorial. Their homes, possessions, lives, and synagogues, all wiped out by raging Palestinians. In the previous century, I know it's a long time ago, 1929 to be exact.

and during the next few decades...

We gratefully saw when the State of Israel, after regaining some semblance of civil control over Hebron (1967) allowed some brave Jewish families to return to these previously-owned-by-Jews' homes. Where they still live today, protected by the IDF in a tightly-interwoven sector of this major Palestinian city. They represent a micro-cosm of what Israel faces in the way of violent militant threats.
Illegal settlers? Rubbish.

According to the 4th Geneva Conventions and the 1907 Hague Convention, most if not all of the settlers are illegal. Those who returned to communities that existed prior to the 1948? I guess a case can me made for those areas, but not most of the Lebensraum communities.

 

[Leumas]

European Christians fleeing persecution, which was a VERY small minority of settlers in the USA, had no historical or spiritual connection to the New World.

Neither did the European followers of Judaism.

On the contrary, Jews have always lived in Palestine, never stopped living in Palestine.

Palestinian followers of Judaism... yes of course... much like Palestinian followers of Christianity and Islam and other religions and no religions too.

There were always tens of thousands there. They became the majority of Jerusalem in the 1890s.

So what... do the majority Catholics of Dublin have the right to ethnically cleanse the minority Anglicans?

Then tens of thousands started migrating to Palestine with the approval of the Ottomans and then hundreds of thousands more with the consent of the British and the UN.

So what... does that give them the right to Genocide the others?

900,000 Jews moved to Israel from neighboring Muslim and Arab states. These are not "European colonists" as you like to put it.

So what... does that give Arab Jews the right to Ethnically Cleanse and genocide the Palestinians?

And you seem to repeatedly want to ignore the FACTS that are inconvenient to your narrative....

I gave you this fact many times over already... but you persist in ignoring it... why???

In 1945, roughly 1 million Jews lived peacefully in the various Arab states of the Middle East, many of them in communities that had existed for thousands of years. After the Arabs rejected the United Nations decision to partition Palestine and create a Jewish state, however, the Jews of the Arab lands became targets of their own governments’ anti-Zionist fervor. As Egypt’s delegate to the UN in 1947 chillingly told the General Assembly: “The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries will be jeopardized by partition.” The dire warning quickly became the brutal reality.

 

[Hercules56]

Neither did the European followers of Judaism...

The Jews of Europe were not simply Germans, Italians, Russians, French, etc who happened to practise the Jewish religion.

History and genetic research shows us a very different story.

Ashkenazi Jews are for the most part descended from Israelites who headed north and west from Palestine after the Romans destroyed Judea in AD 135. Some converts from Europe were brought in but that all ended when the Christians strarted passing strong laws banning Jews from taking on converts, forcing them into ghettos, banning from owning lands, farms, property and jobs for most Jews. Basically due to Christian bigoted laws the Jews of Europe became a nation inside a nation. Situation was basically the same in North Africa and the Middle East.

Leumas and others talk like the Jews of Europe are literally just Europeans who converted to Judaism over the centuries. Its historical-revisionism and dishonest propaganda.


And btw, Jews faced lots of violence and discrimination over the years under Muslim rule in Muslim lands. It was not all hunky doree until Zionism came along. Such an idea is more dishonest propaganda.

 

[Leumas]

I'm trying to find a way to describe a level of argumentative dishonesty and hopelessness greater then "Prove to me that the Muslim world is hostile toward Jews" and I'm coming up empty.

Other than the above post itself... here are two more below that fit your requirement perfectly...

Why does anyone bother talking with Leumas? It's utterly pointless.

1. Because all the other Hamas apologists got scared away and so he's the only one talking.

2. We're talking AT Leumas, not with him.

Your search is over.

 

[webfusion]

There is a case to be made about the legality of those Jewish homesteads in Judea and Samaria, as well as the incorporation/reunification of the Jerusalem municipalty.
If the case ever comes in front of an international justice tribunal (ICJ or ICC) then the matter can be adjudicated and a determination made regarding what rights Israel retains under international laws to have facilitated the voluntary residents of the towns, villages, farms and cities over the defunct 'ceasefire lines' of 1949.
Same as Gaza, when some brave Jews in the last century realized that there was no good reason to exclude us from the coastal salient (where our synagogues and homes had stood, before being overrun by marauding Bedouins or whomever). Those people had to vacate their beautiful homes and synagogues, in the face of Palestinian armed attacks.

I do know the ICJ and ICC are considering what to do about the matter being raised by Palestinians that declare Israel needs to be prosecuted over 'the settlements'