Pyramid Older than Civilization

[angrysoba]

This looks like a relevant video:



I note that the name which comes up that Hancock uses to support his belief in the ancient civilization is the same name that appears as lead author on the paper cited by the National Post article.

Link

Danny Hilman Natawidjaja who apparently believes that Indonesia is the site of Atlantis.

However, as the video shows, this particular site is an extinct volcano, not a pyramid and has blocks of lava similar to those you find at the Giant's Causeway that have been moved around by people and arranged into steps up the volcano, probably around two thousand years ago.

It looks like they are claiming that the arrangements two thousand years ago, were merely the fourth round of building.

In the acknowledgements:

We acknowledge Mr Graham Hancock for kindly proofreading the manuscript and his team for shedding light on Gunung Padang in Netflix's Ancient Apocalypse.

 

[novaphile]

I love the simple explanation for why so many cultures built pyramid shaped structures:


"Everything else that they tried, fell over."


Cool eh?

 

[angrysoba]

To clarify something, it is the journalist who decided to title the piece about the pyramid being older than civilization.

While the article is likely reporting on a crank theory, I will be fair to the cranks by pointing out that they did at least say that the civilization is older than we had assumed...

This study sheds light on advanced masonry skills dating back to the last glacial period. This finding challenges the conventional belief that human civilization and the development of advanced construction techniques emerged only during the warm period of the early Holocene or the beginning of the Neolithic, with the advent of agriculture approximately 11 000 years ago (Harari, 2014). However, evidence from Gunung Padang and other sites, such as Gobekli Tepe, suggests that advanced construction practices were already present when agriculture had, perhaps, not yet been invented.
The builders of Unit 3 and Unit 2 at Gunung Padang must have possessed remarkable masonry capabilities, which do not align with the traditional hunter-gatherer cultures. The burial of these structures around 9000 years ago adds further intrigue for reasons not fully understood. Given the long and continuous occupation of Gunung Padang, it is reasonable to speculate that this site held significant importance, attracting ancient people to repeatedly occupy and modify it.

I would say it seems a bit weird to me that they would be citing a popular history book by Yuval Noah Harari.

At least the article puts things into perspective with one skeptical archeologist saying the following:

”In the Pawon cave in Padalarang [about 45 kilometres from Gunung Padang], we found some human bones and tools made of bones [from] about 7000 BCE. So, if at 7000 BCE our technology was only producing tools of bones, how can people from 20,000 BCE obtain the technology to build a pyramid?”

He added: ”In archaeology we usually find the ‘culture’ first … Then, after we find out the artefact’s age we’ll seek out historical references to any civilisation which existed around that period. Only then will we be able to explain the artefact historically. In this case, they ‘found’ something, carbon-dated it, then it looks like they created a civilization around the period to explain their finding.”

Let's face it, the claims by Hancock and Natawidjaja are almost certainly bollocks.

 

[theprestige]

To clarify something, it is the journalist who decided to title the piece about the pyramid being older than civilization.

While the article is likely reporting on a crank theory, I will be fair to the cranks by pointing out that they did at least say that the civilization is older than we had assumed...



I would say it seems a bit weird to me that they would be citing a popular history book by Yuval Noah Harari.

At least the article puts things into perspective with one skeptical archeologist saying the following:



Let's face it, the claims by Hancock and Natawidjaja are almost certainly bollocks.

Your clarification is unnecessary. It's a red herring that serves the publisher. Byline, headline editor, publisher, they're all part of the same entity. You don't want your sensible reports to get sensationalist headlines? Stop taking your paychecks from sensationalist publishers.

 

[angrysoba]

Your clarification is unnecessary. It's a red herring that serves the publisher. Byline, headline editor, publisher, they're all part of the same entity. You don't want your sensible reports to get sensationalist headlines? Stop taking your paychecks from sensationalist publishers.

It is necessary. While you are almost certainly correct that the journalist was not responsible for the headline, that is what some posters, including the OP, are focusing on.

AH, well. A pyramid older than Civilization is nonsense. Perhaps a civilization older than we have known of up till now, but ... stone structures are intrinsically hard to date.

I'd let he Champaign stay in the rack for now.

Hans

If correct, this still makes the authors of 'ooh it's before civilization' complete numbskulls.

100%.

When a man-made structure is discovered that appears to be "older than civilization itself", and if that age is subsequently confirmed by passing rigorous scientific testing, then the result is that we now understand civilization is older than we had thought.

The concept is an oxymoron..

I'm clarifying for the sake of those who think the claims are that pyramids were built before civilization.

There are all kinds of crank theories about pyramids and other megalithic structures and I think it is best that we know which form of crank theory we are dealing with here.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Could have guessed it'd be a Hancock crony.

 

[smartcooky]

Netflix's "Ancient Apocalypse" is about as scholarly as "America Unearthed" and "Ancient Aliens". Its nothing more than fringe pseudo-history, and Graham Hancock is a fraud, right up there on the fraud scale with people like Scott Wolter and Giorgio Tsoukalos.

 

[Pixel42]

I love the simple explanation for why so many cultures built pyramid shaped structures:


"Everything else that they tried, fell over."


Cool eh?

You're a stone mason. You haven't yet invented arches, flying buttresses, domes, concrete or anything else a modern stone mason takes for granted: all you know how to do is pile one stone on top of another.

Your big chief/king/high priest wants an imposing building, probably as their tomb. You're required to produce a structure that is the maximum possible height for the minimum possible amount of stone & work. What are you going to build?

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

I love the simple explanation for why so many cultures built pyramid shaped structures:


"Everything else that they tried, fell over."


Cool eh?

But were they building them to woo young ladies with massive tracts of land?

 

[shemp]

They built pyramids because they met the building and fire codes, and pyramid insurance was cheap.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Backwards. This pyramid hasn't been built yet, but when it does get built it'll be sent back in time. It's all a scheme to boost tourism, and I hope whoever's going to have done it is will be having been one day going to be punished for misuse of resources, assuming that will have was a crime at then. Obvious when you think about.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

You're a stone mason. You haven't yet invented arches, flying buttresses, domes, concrete or anything else a modern stone mason takes for granted: all you know how to do is pile one stone on top of another.

Your big chief/king/high priest wants an imposing building, probably as their tomb. You're required to produce a structure that is the maximum possible height for the minimum possible amount of stone & work. What are you going to build?

I can tell this question is directed specifically at me, so I will answer.

"An umbrella."

 

[Thermal]

You're a stone mason. You haven't yet invented arches, flying buttresses, domes, concrete or anything else a modern stone mason takes for granted: all you know how to do is pile one stone on top of another.

Your big chief/king/high priest wants an imposing building, probably as their tomb. You're required to produce a structure that is the maximum possible height for the minimum possible amount of stone & work. What are you going to build?

In fairness, they did have some concept of arches to displace weight over open rooms. The structure in question was scanned, and a big ol' 10 meter square chamber was believed to have been found?

 

[Thermal]

I can tell this question is directed specifically at me, so I will answer.

"An umbrella."

I personally opine that they built towering skyscrapers, but they were struck by Al-Rocka terrorists with holograms and missiles, that collapsed into their own footprints leaving a pyramid shaped rubble pile. It's like I have to explain everything.

 

[Pixel42]

In fairness, they did have some concept of arches to displace weight over open rooms. The structure in question was scanned, and a big ol' 10 meter square chamber was believed to have been found?

I was making a more general point about the prevalence of pyramids in many and various ancient civilisations which some woo slingers insist is proof they were all taught by aliens, or some such nonsense.

 

[Thermal]

I was making a more general point about the prevalence of pyramids in many and various ancient civilisations which some woo slingers insist is proof they were all taught by aliens, or some such nonsense.

Yeah, I get that, but I admire the engineering that went into even simple structures.

Regarding the basic design, it seems most practical. Each level provides a scaffolding effect to keep moving blocks higher, which is lost if a vertical wall is introduced. Also, mountains are very +/- pyramid shaped, so a pyramid builder may be mimicking nature.

 

[8enotto]

The woo slinger crowd even managed to calculate the pyramids around the world all form a straight line from one to another around the earth or land disk as they may believe.
They have a billion half baked theories about any and every archeology site out there. It makes good Sunday aft tv programs at least. Facts be damned.

 

[Pixel42]

Yeah, I get that, but I admire the engineering that went into even simple structures.

Absolutely. Their builders were as smart and inventive as the engineers who later built cathedrals and skyscrapers, they were just working with a smaller number of materials and techniques because knowledge is cumulative.

It always annoys me when ignorant people insist ancient peoples couldn't possibly have built pyramids or whatever, so aliens must have helped them, usually just because they can't personally work out how they did it. Well maybe the builders were just smarter and more ingenious than you, did you consider that possibility?

 

[TragicMonkey]

The woo slinger crowd even managed to calculate the pyramids around the world all form a straight line from one to another around the earth or land disk as they may believe.
They have a billion half baked theories about any and every archeology site out there. It makes good Sunday aft tv programs at least. Facts be damned.

Did you know that if you were to disassemble the pyramids at Giza and lay every block end-to-end you would get into a lot of trouble? People would be super mad about it. I don't see it ending well, so I strongly advise you not to do that, no matter how tempting it seems.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I was making a more general point about the prevalence of pyramids in many and various ancient civilisations which some woo slingers insist is proof they were all taught by aliens, or some such nonsense.

If global pyramidization is evidence of aliens, what then are Mound^WPs evidence of? They too exist around the world. Are they evidence of less technologically advanced aliens or of simple humans just using the materials to hand?