Lukraak_Sisser
Philosopher
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2009
- Messages
- 6,453
Bah, they are just covering up an ancient Civ that wonder rushed and then got crushed because they had no military units to hold back the barbarians that spawned two tiles away.
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Pyramid Older than Civilization
- Thread starter Gord_in_Toronto
- Start date
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- Tags
- archeaology
Reformed Offlian
Illuminator
It is speculated that their mating call was a steady beeping sound that they made as they walked slowly backwards in attempt to impress prospective mates with their physical prowess and safety consciousness.
Jim_MDP
Penultimate Amazing
Damn, and I thought Birds of Paradise were eccentric. [emoji38]
The latest Joe Rogan podcast (which is no longer exclusive to Spotify and so is back on Youtube and other platforms, btw) has the archaeologist who was quoted in your article, Flint Dribble, and Graham Hancock together debating one another. The podcast appears to be almost 4 1/2 hours long and I've only just started watching it, so I can't really say much more about it at the moment other than Joe lets Flint start it off.
"Joe Rogan Experience #2136 - Graham Hancock & Flint Dibble"
...or here's the direct link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DL1_EMIw6w
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2006
- Messages
- 26,925
4 1/2 hours!!!
I'm not sure I am that interested in the topic. Particularly if Hancock is involved.
Have watched enough of it to summarize and conclusions it comes to?
angrysoba
Philosophile
I've listened to a lot of it on my way to work. Dibble (not Dribble
) does a pretty good job of explaining how there is no evidence for the proposed ancient civilization. Hancock predictably gets miffed and instead of arguing for the existence of the ancient civilization, falls back on the argument that you can't prove there wasn't an ancient civilization. Dibble then explains why it is highly unlikely given that hunter gatherers, despite not leaving behind monuments, were much better at leaving behind evidence of their existence than Hancock's world-straddling civilization.Hancock reprises his ideas that there are ancient monuments off Yonaguni, Dibble counters that most geologists and archeologists think they are natural formations.
But later Hancock starts getting into his own grievances and brings up Gunung Padang at about 1 hour and 42 minutes in. Hancock predictably says it was a witch hunt (he even uses a picture of a witch-finder general
) to discredit him and his buddy, Danny Hilman. Hancock plays a conversation that Dibble had with some Indonesian archeologists and gets upset that they chuckle slightly about the idea of Gunung Padang being a pyramid. Rogan, who has mostly been quiet about this suddenly starts saying that yeah, he thinks that rock could indeed be a tool or a dagger or something.https://youtu.be/-DL1_EMIw6w?t=6168
Hancock knows he can't really argue the point for long and tries to move off the subject quickly.
Dibble does a good job throughout this debate, but I expect most Hancock fans will only double down on his nonsense.
ETA: Well, I may have to qualify that previous sentence as Hancock brings up quotes of Dibble saying that Hancock is promoting white supremacy. Dibble tries to finesse the point by saying he didn't think Hancock was a white supremacist, but he was promoting it by using sources that were written by white supremacists. Hmmmm... I don't approve of those tactics. Just show that Hancock is wrong. The attempts to bring up white supremacy or anti-semitism etc... looks tenuous at best and seems like ad hominem.
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Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
That's the trouble with tribbles. It's hard to get rid of them.
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2006
- Messages
- 26,925
I've listened to a lot of it on my way to work. Dibble (not Dribble
Hancock reprises his ideas that there are ancient monuments off Yonaguni, Dibble counters that most geologists and archeologists think they are natural formations.
But later Hancock starts getting into his own grievances and brings up Gunung Padang at about 1 hour and 42 minutes in. Hancock predictably says it was a witch hunt (he even uses a picture of a witch-finder general
https://youtu.be/-DL1_EMIw6w?t=6168
Hancock knows he can't really argue the point for long and tries to move off the subject quickly.
Dibble does a good job throughout this debate, but I expect most Hancock fans will only double down on his nonsense.
ETA: Well, I may have to qualify that previous sentence as Hancock brings up quotes of Dibble saying that Hancock is promoting white supremacy. Dibble tries to finesse the point by saying he didn't think Hancock was a white supremacist, but he was promoting it by using sources that were written by white supremacists. Hmmmm... I don't approve of those tactics. Just show that Hancock is wrong. The attempts to bring up white supremacy or anti-semitism etc... looks tenuous at best and seems like ad hominem.
for that! You saved at least an hour of my valuable time. 
Yes, thanks, angrysoba! I don’t want to give Joe Rogan or Graham Hancock any views, so you took one for the team!
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
Um, yeah. It's a bit of a trap or a catch-22.
Wrong is just wrong. But it's always tempting to bring such stuff up.
IIRC, James Watson, co-discoverer of DNA was a big racist too. But DNA is nonetheless very real. Best to leave irrelevant arguments aside, especially for Rogan's audience who are likely to see it as some sort of woke virtue-signaling and be distracted from the main point, which is that he is simply wrong.
angrysoba
Philosophile
The ironic thing is that Hancock actually employs a few "woke" tropes.
For example, they argue over the age of the Sphinx and the Egyptian pyramids, and Dibble says that no geologists agree with Robert Shoch's water erosion theory for the much older age of the Sphinx. Rogan disputes that and thinks many geologists do agree with him. Then Hancock says something like, "It doesn't matter how many geologists agree or disagree. He's spoken his truth!"
That is just the daftest epistemology, as if "my truth" works when it comes to dating the Sphinx. The Sphinx objectively either is or is not X thousand years. Facts don't care about your feelings, Graham!
Hancock did a lot of playing the victim throughout. He was constantly decrying the way that people in the academy "viciously" attacked him, as though archeology were some closed shop of people who all agree with each other (the truth is that a lot of academia is about various schools of thought constantly sniping at each other. There are almost no fields where that doesn't happen). And how they viciously attacked his fellow cranks or had papers retracted (like Danny Hilman), as if this doesn't happen all the time when shoddy papers get published.
He also does something that I have noticed happens in debates, and have begun to wonder if it is a bit of excuse-making. He keeps drawing attention to his short-sightedness (actual, not metaphorical), and keeps changing his glasses and pointing out how terrible it is to get old. This kind of flagging up of a frailty is something I noticed Gary Taubes doing on a previous Rogan podcast when he was being taken apart by Stephen Guyenet. It seems to be bids for sympathy: look at me, poor me, losing my eyesight and having been so viciously attacked. Please believe my crackpot theories, stop being mean!
angrysoba
Philosophile
I actually think it is pretty good. Dibble does a great job of science communication and explaining why archeologists think Hancock's theories are... *ahem*...not well supported. He also provides a pretty clear and coherent picture of what archeologists do tend to agree on and why, etc...
Hancock repeatedly tries to play down any claims he made for specific features of his lost civilization, trying to say that he never claimed it was an empire, for example, or wavering on whether or not it had agriculture, so Dibble reads passages from Hancock's books where he was claiming agriculture.
Anyway, I felt that it was so good, I threw in a donation to him through Ko-Fi.
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
Scotty didn't find it difficult.
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Re
Wasn't Flint Dribble a basketball player on the Flintstones?
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
As I recall, they died because they ate grain poisoned by the Klingons.
Mind you, a Scottish diet of deep-fried Mars Bars and chips would probably have the same effect in the long run!
angrysoba
Philosophile