Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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Jedi said:
ah, but they do clearly say so in both interviews and their charter.
some quotes from the charter:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

article 7: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
(where can i get a Gharkad tree?)

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
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Charter of 1988, subsequently 2017 document I referenced shows Hamas has moved from this position. If you compare 1988 and 2017 documents that shows a clear shift.
 
Jedi said:
justice is not revenge. hamas can not be negotiated with any more than ISIS. they need to be dismantled. Hopefully and more peaceful govt that works on building a Palestinian nation can take their place.
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This is obviously untrue. Hamas can be negotiated with, has been negotiated with. Some people may not wish to negotiate with Hamas, some people may feel Hamas should not be negotiated with, but it is untrue to say Hamas can not be negotiated with.

This post should not be interpreted as support for Hamas. Challenging failures of critical thinking is what this forum is about.
 
with already more Palestinians killed in the bombing than Israeli killed in the attack, "justice" is perhaps not the term you want to refer to to justify your actions.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
with already more Palestinians killed in the bombing than Israeli killed in the attack, "justice" is perhaps not the term you want to refer to to justify your actions.
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To be more specific more Palestinian children have been killed by Israel since Oct 7 than the total number of Israelis (and others) killed by Hamas.
 
dudalb said:
And allowing HAMAS to remain in power in GAZA will result in more attacks.
Allowing HAMAS to get away with it';s attack would be a disaster.
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Balance that against Israeli action strengthening Hamas hold over Gaza and how likely it is that Israel can actually defeat them.

Both sides have men of violence who incorrectly think that they can physically beat the other into submission and gain a genuine victory. The pointlessness of their actions and the need to negotiate, compromise and find a peaceful solution needs to be promoted by the international community.
 
dudalb said:
Should HAMAS be allowed to get away with what it did on October 7th. Yes or No.
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No.

Now that question is settled, the pressing issue is what is that best way to not allow Hamas to get away with it.

Israel thinks that it is possible to destroy Hamas by military action. That has not worked in the past and there are numerous world examples of a national army that could not defeat a smaller guerilla army.
 
dudalb said:
I also note how the Pro Palestinain people here want Israel to make all the concessions,with the Palestinains not making any.
I also not they seem less upset by Islamic Extremist then they are by Christian and Jewish extemism.
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Can you link to and quote anyone saying that?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
with already more Palestinians killed in the bombing than Israeli killed in the attack, "justice" is perhaps not the term you want to refer to to justify your actions.
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I'm not the one you're responding to, but... just because I feel like it.

"Justice" is a term that rarely applies well to war, given the forces in play and its nature. I'm entirely fine with agreeing that it's a very poor term here, too.

"Justified" applies much more frequently and is generally better because of its far more limited scope. It's much more reasonable to say that Israel's justified in its choice to go to war, but not always justified in the military actions that it has taken than it is to speak of "justice."

Either way, war is normally pretty atrocious for the civilians caught up in it.
 
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Planigale said:
This post should not be interpreted as support for Hamas. Challenging failures of critical thinking is what this forum is about.
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In the minds of those who blindly support Israel and its massacre of civilians, anything but 100% support for their revolting actions is support for Hamas.

Aridas said:
Either way, war is normally pretty always atrocious for the civilians caught up in it.
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FTFY.

Looks to me like Israel has taken a leaf out of the torah and figured the way to stop Hamas is to stop kids growing up and supporting them, by the simple expedient of not letting them grow to adulthood.
 
Planigale said:
I absolutely agree with the highlighted. I would also argue the same for Palestinian extremists.
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Yes, you probably would- and I would genuinely like to see you try to make that argument, with reference to specific Palestinian extremists or extremist groups.
The two main players are Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
The former, as has been explained and demonstrated many times on this thread, were formed with the specific intent of destroying Israel and driving the Jews into the sea. This goal was justified by a whole load of religious fundammentalist rhetoric, and a great deal of conspiracy theory nonsense about the Lions Clubs, and how the Jews started both world wars.
At no point were Hamas anything other than extremist. They didn't start as moderates, and resort to extremism in the face of Israeli intransigence: they were always extremists.
The same is true of PIJ.
The aim of the organization was the establishment of a sovereign, Islamic Palestinian state within the geographic borders of pre-1948 Mandatory Palestine. Completely rejecting the political process, the organization professes that its goals can only be achieved through military means.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad
It's also worth looking at the biographies of the founders of PIJ, which are linked to in the article. Neither of them were driven to extremism by Israeli refusals to negotiate.
So, if we're talking about Hamas and PIJ, they never wanted to negotiate; they never wanted a two-state solution, and they never wanted to compromise. From the very beginning.
So, yes, I very much would like to hear your argument that Palestinian extremists became that way because Israel refused to negotiate.
 
Jedi said:
I'm not a fan of the settlements, but Israel arrests and sentences settlers to prison. I can look up examples but show me examples of the PA arresting anyone for attacking Jews, settlers or not. they (and/or their families) end up getting compensated (pay-for-slay).

the point i'm making is that you can't stop individuals for committing crimes, but the govts (Israel and PA) need to hold them accountable. Only Israel does that.
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[Citation needed]

Last time I checked, the state of Israel has been busy facilitating the theft of Palestinian land and, especially, water.
 
The Atheist said:
Looks to me like Israel has taken a leaf out of the torah and figured the way to stop Hamas is to stop kids growing up and supporting them, by the simple expedient of not letting them grow to adulthood.
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Why does it look that way to you? Are you seeing deliberate targeting of children by Israel? Are you seeing Israel killing lots of babies? Are you seeing Israel somehow suppressing the birth rate of Palestinians?

What exactly prompts you to claim that Israel isn't letting kids live long enough to become adults?
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Yes, you probably would- and I would genuinely like to see you try to make that argument, with reference to specific Palestinian extremists or extremist groups.
The two main players are Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
The former, as has been explained and demonstrated many times on this thread, were formed with the specific intent of destroying Israel and driving the Jews into the sea. This goal was justified by a whole load of religious fundammentalist rhetoric, and a great deal of conspiracy theory nonsense about the Lions Clubs, and how the Jews started both world wars.
At no point were Hamas anything other than extremist. They didn't start as moderates, and resort to extremism in the face of Israeli intransigence: they were always extremists.
The same is true of PIJ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad
It's also worth looking at the biographies of the founders of PIJ, which are linked to in the article. Neither of them were driven to extremism by Israeli refusals to negotiate.
So, if we're talking about Hamas and PIJ, they never wanted to negotiate; they never wanted a two-state solution, and they never wanted to compromise. From the very beginning.
So, yes, I very much would like to hear your argument that Palestinian extremists became that way because Israel refused to negotiate.
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Are we talking about individuals or organisations? If individuals are not made into extremists then an extremist organisation dies.

Most Palestinians just want to live a quiet life. But sufficient have been driven to violence that the Horrors of a mass civilian massacre happened.

I think you fail to see how for their whole life the young people of Gaza have been imprisoned, deprived, all a deliberate policy of the Israeli government. Under continual threat of death from the air. What is surprising is how many are for peace.

I think the actions of Hamas are wrong, I think they were criminal. But if you want to reduce crime you deal with the causes of crime. People who are starving will steal. People who are being killed will fight back. Far more Gazans have been killed by Israel in absolute number let alone relatively than vice versa.

Remember how many Gazans were shot by the IDF in peaceful demonstrations, when peaceful actions don't work then you can expect violence. When Gazans were peacefully demonstrating and were shot then the world could have acted.

What Hamas did was terrible, horrible, I don't defend it. But violence will not end violence.
 
Planigale said:
Israel has not given up its refusal to accept an independent Palestinian nation state.

So this is the starting position for negotiations.

You want pre-conditions on PA etc. that you do not require for Israel. I would have thought the first step in negotiations is mutual recognition of statehood.
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right so for many years Israel was willing to talk but now they're realizing the PA just keep responding with terror so Israel is once again to blame. remember the intifada Arafat started after camp david where Israel offered a withdrawl from 91% of the w. bank? his counteroffer was an intifada.
 
Planigale said:
. But violence will not end violence.
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Right. The Nazi just one day woke up so ashamed at the Holocaust they just voluntarily stopped doing it. The Allies stomping Hitler's forces like a Narc at a biker rally had nothing to do with.

The South would have eventually realized owning other humans as property was wrong without a war, surely.

Communism would have spread exactly as far as it did and just decided to stop there without NATO countering expansion during the Cold War.
 
Jedi said:
right so for many years Israel was willing to talk but now they're realizing the PA just keep responding with terror so Israel is once again to blame. remember the intifada Arafat started after camp david where Israel offered a withdrawl from 91% of the w. bank? his counteroffer was an intifada.
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Indeed. The Palestinians have never been serious negotiators.
 
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