Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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dudalb said:
ANd your alternative to Israel just bending over and taking it in the butt?
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Sometimes taking in the butt is better than the alternative!*

Realistically a national government ideally should think about the long term consequences of actions, not just responding to immediate emotions. IDF can both respond to Hamas, and strengthen the PA on the West Bank. One obvious action is to prevent settler terrorism. Perhaps increasing authority to the PA, allowing PA police to investigate settler violence against Palestinians within the West Bank. Not moving civilian Palestinian detainees from the West Bank to israel under military detention against international law. instructing the IDF to prevent settler violence. Announce negotiations with the PA about independent nation status for the West bank and Gaza.

*E.g. mid-cycle.
 
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dudalb said:
And this is not good, a sign the violence might be spilling over into the US
:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/detroit-synagogue-president-samantha-woll-found-dead-outside-her-home/ar-AA1iCzaA

Too soon to tell,but this has all the markings of a Hate Crime. Along with the Muslim kid being killed, I got a sick feeling these might just be the beginning.
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By which you mean, of course, that there is not any actual evidence whatsoever that it was a hate crime.

Police have not yet identified a motive, they said. They were called to a woman found lying on the ground unresponsive at about 6:30 a.m. and pronounced her dead at the scene, they said.
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Detroit being classically such a very safe and crime free city after all; at a meager #3 for homicides per capita in the US, with a 1 in 43 chance of being the victim of violent crime.
 
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Planigale said:
Sometimes taking in the butt is better than the alternative!*

Realistically a national government ideally should think about the long term consequences of actions, not just responding to immediate emotions. IDF can both respond to Hamas, and strengthen the PA on the West Bank. One obvious action is to prevent settler terrorism. Perhaps increasing authority to the PA, allowing PA police to investigate settler violence against Palestinians within the West Bank. Not moving civilian Palestinian detainees from the West Bank to israel under military detention against international law. instructing the IDF to prevent settler violence. Announce negotiations with the PA about independent nation status for the West bank and Gaza.

*E.g. mid-cycle.
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A nation must defend it's population. If Israel responds to this pogrom of 1400 men, women and children by giving them a bunch of carrots, no one is safe. Remember, Hamas does not want a 2 state solution, and does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Their goal is to slaughter Jews worldwide. What you're suggesting will just pave the way for the next massacre. Massacre 1400 Jews, win prizes.
 
Jedi said:
A nation must defend it's population. If Israel responds to this pogrom of 1400 men, women and children by giving them a bunch of carrots, no one is safe. Remember, Hamas does not want a 2 state solution, and does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Their goal is to slaughter Jews worldwide. What you're suggesting will just pave the way for the next massacre. Massacre 1400 Jews, win prizes.
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Hamas is not ruling the West Bank (yet). Why is Israel undermining the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank by ignoring settlers killing Palestinians in the West Bank.
 
Jedi said:
A nation must defend it's population. If Israel responds to this pogrom of 1400 men, women and children by giving them a bunch of carrots, no one is safe. Remember, Hamas does not want a 2 state solution, and does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Their goal is to slaughter Jews worldwide. What you're suggesting will just pave the way for the next massacre. Massacre 1400 Jews, win prizes.
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This is true, but then again, the Palestinians see the land Israel in on as their land, unfairly occupied by European colonists and that they are trying to defend their nation. So by your argument they should attempt to evict those that took their land.

Not personally I feel that that by now has become impossible, but as long as Israel and the west keep treating the Palestinians as unreasonable natives that should be happy a civilized people is guiding them to a better tomorrow by letting them beg for the scraps Israel does not want things are not going to get better.

I agree that the split Gaza/West bank was never viable. Ideally Israel would take the Gaza strip, add an equal area of land to the West bank, return Eastern Jerusalem and then withdraw completely from the West bank, stopping all sanctions on that area.
And yes, that does include allowing the PA there to develop as a real nation with an independent foreign policy and an army.

But the reality learns that Israel will only allow an independent Palestinian nation in the way Putin wants an independent Ukraine.
 
Jedi said:
A nation must defend it's population. If Israel responds to this pogrom of 1400 men, women and children by giving them a bunch of carrots, no one is safe. Remember, Hamas does not want a 2 state solution, and does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Their goal is to slaughter Jews worldwide. What you're suggesting will just pave the way for the next massacre. Massacre 1400 Jews, win prizes.
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Remember the current Israeli government does not recognise the right to exist of an independent Palestinian nation.

What the most current statement by Hamas towards the Jewish people actually says. It should be noted that Hamas has altered its views over time. Hamas no longer (and arguably never) advocated slaughter of Jews worldwide.

Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage.
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https://doi.org/10.1525/jps.2017.46.4.100

On 1 May 2017, Hamas released its “Document of General Principles and Policies” following years of periodic speculation that the movement was working on a new political platform. Heralded by some as a significant milestone in Hamas's political thought and practice, the document reiterates longstanding positions but also lays out some new ones. Given the timing of its release, as well as its contents and possible implications, the document could be considered Hamas's new charter: it details the organization's views on the struggle against “the Zionist project” and Israel and outlines its strategies to counter that project.
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This should not be interpreted as an agreement with the views of Hamas nor a defence of their criminal acts.

It does however mean that I believe that we should not use myths to excuse a failure to seek peace. just as there are many political parties in the Israeli government, and any negotiations will need to recognise that so any negotiations with Palestinian representatives will need to recognise a breadth of views from the secular PA to islamist groups, whether involving Hamas as such or related groups. it should also be recognised that hamas has demonstrated an ability to alter their views over time.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
This is true, but then again, the Palestinians see the land Israel in on as their land, unfairly occupied by European colonists and that they are trying to defend their nation. So by your argument they should attempt to evict those that took their land.

Not personally I feel that that by now has become impossible, but as long as Israel and the west keep treating the Palestinians as unreasonable natives that should be happy a civilized people is guiding them to a better tomorrow by letting them beg for the scraps Israel does not want things are not going to get better.

I agree that the split Gaza/West bank was never viable. Ideally Israel would take the Gaza strip, add an equal area of land to the West bank, return Eastern Jerusalem and then withdraw completely from the West bank, stopping all sanctions on that area.
And yes, that does include allowing the PA there to develop as a real nation with an independent foreign policy and an army.

But the reality learns that Israel will only allow an independent Palestinian nation in the way Putin wants an independent Ukraine.
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I do wonder if a Federal one nation solution is possible. A secular Federal constitution and institutions based on Jerusalem a bit like DC or ACT, but allowing a Jewish state with Tel Aviv as its capital and Gaza and the West Bank as Palestinian Islamic states. There may even be a desire to have more than one Jewish state, a predominantly secular one and an orthodox one. The right of return could be delegated, if the 'Palestinian' states felt they could accommodate historic Palestinians refugees from e.g. Lebanon or Syria then they should be allowed to.
 
Planigale said:
Remember the current Israeli government does not recognise the right to exist of an independent Palestinian nation.
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No, but that government can be replaced at an election. Hamas, OTOH, won't allow elections in Gaza. Their rejection of the right of Israel to exist will never change, and the people of Gaza will never get a chance to get their voices heard, until Hamas returns to democracy, or it gets kicked out.

Planigale said:
What the most current statement by Hamas towards the Jewish people actually says. It should be noted that Hamas has altered its views over time. Hamas no longer (and arguably never) advocated slaughter of Jews worldwide.
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It could also easily be argued that, faced with increasing isolation and criticism over the obviously antisemitic, conspiracy-theory tones of its rhetoric, they simply changed the wording to appease their critics, whilst still holding onto the prior beliefs.
Oh, and here's a Hamas official from 2019 calling for the slaughter of Jews worldwide:
https://www.voanews.com/a/middle-ea...r-calling-palestinians-kill-jews/6171870.html

The new charter also talks about how Hamas is all for democracy, so that goes towards showing how little they actually believe their own document.
The new charter still includes a refusal to recognise Israel, and demands that all Palestinian lands occupied by the Zionists be given to the Palestinian Arabs. There is no mention at all of the formerly-Palestinian lands currently being occupied, or claimed, by Muslim countries, to be returned to the Palestinians. (The Golan Heights, half of Rafah, and the entire country of Jordan).
If it isn't about Jews, why is it only Jewish occupation they are fighting about, and not Muslim occupation?



Planigale said:
This should not be interpreted as an agreement with the views of Hamas nor a defence of their criminal acts.

It does however mean that I believe that we should not use myths to excuse a failure to seek peace. just as there are many political parties in the Israeli government, and any negotiations will need to recognise that so any negotiations with Palestinian representatives will need to recognise a breadth of views from the secular PA to islamist groups, whether involving Hamas as such or related groups. it should also be recognised that hamas has demonstrated an ability to alter their views over time.
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Fine, but your first sentence in your post indicates to me that you are not prepared to acknowledge that spread of beliefs among Israelis. I would argue, also, that one of the reasons for the emergence of the far-right in Israel is that their pervious attempts to reach some kind of accommodation with the Palestinian leadership have been met with failure. The extremists have fed on the frustration and resignation this engendered. The firebrands in Netanyahu's administration do not represent the entirety of Israeli public opinion.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
No, but that government can be replaced at an election. Hamas, OTOH, won't allow elections in Gaza. Their rejection of the right of Israel to exist will never change, and the people of Gaza will never get a chance to get their voices heard, until Hamas returns to democracy, or it gets kicked out.



It could also easily be argued that, faced with increasing isolation and criticism over the obviously antisemitic, conspiracy-theory tones of its rhetoric, they simply changed the wording to appease their critics, whilst still holding onto the prior beliefs.
Oh, and here's a Hamas official from 2019 calling for the slaughter of Jews worldwide:
https://www.voanews.com/a/middle-ea...r-calling-palestinians-kill-jews/6171870.html

The new charter also talks about how Hamas is all for democracy, so that goes towards showing how little they actually believe their own document.
The new charter still includes a refusal to recognise Israel, and demands that all Palestinian lands occupied by the Zionists be given to the Palestinian Arabs. There is no mention at all of the formerly-Palestinian lands currently being occupied, or claimed, by Muslim countries, to be returned to the Palestinians. (The Golan Heights, half of Rafah, and the entire country of Jordan).
If it isn't about Jews, why is it only Jewish occupation they are fighting about, and not Muslim occupation?





Fine, but your first sentence in your post indicates to me that you are not prepared to acknowledge that spread of beliefs among Israelis. I would argue, also, that one of the reasons for the emergence of the far-right in Israel is that their pervious attempts to reach some kind of accommodation with the Palestinian leadership have been met with failure. The extremists have fed on the frustration and resignation this engendered. The firebrands in Netanyahu's administration do not represent the entirety of Israeli public opinion.
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I absolutely agree with the highlighted. I would also argue the same for Palestinian extremists.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
I would argue, also, that one of the reasons for the emergence of the far-right in Israel is that their pervious attempts to reach some kind of accommodation with the Palestinian leadership have been met with failure. The extremists have fed on the frustration and resignation this engendered.
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Back in 1994 when Rabin, Peres, and Arafat won the Nobel Prize, there was a real chance of peace, but extremists of both sides rallied to sink that ship. The Palestinian extremists were quick to make new rocket attacks, and the Jewish extremists famously assassinated Rabin. The forces of evil have always held the upper hand

The firebrands in Netanyahu's administration do not represent the entirety of Israeli public opinion.
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Well, the government does have a democratic majority. The people who voted for Netanyahu knew that he was going to need support from the extremists, and accepted it, mainly because they feared that peace could break out if he did not win.
 
Current deaths in Gaza in last 2 weeks are 4651 killed, including 1873 children and 1023 women. According to IDF 23 Hamas members have been killed. This would be roughly 200 civilians killed by the IDF for every member of Hamas killed. According to the IDF roughly 20% of the 1,400 killed by Hamas were active service military. I cannot find any breakdown of the proportion of women and children killed by Hamas.



These figures are for comparison purposes only and should not be construed to imply any support for the crimes of Hamas.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
How many policemen and military servicemen were killed in the Hamas attack?
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From the IDF they say about 20% were either active service military or reservists carrying out security duties. That would make about 280. This source says 286.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-eas...-toll-from-conflict-with-hamas-to-286/3020386

ETA I do not know how many Hamas persons took part in the attack, I had assumed they were all killed but there is a report that one has been captured who had been evading capture and was trying to re-enter Gaza.
 
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Planigale said:
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ETA I do not know how many Hamas persons took part in the attack, I had assumed they were all killed but there is a report that one has been captured who had been evading capture and was trying to re-enter Gaza.
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Some number made it back. We know that because they took the hostages with them. Given the number of hostages it seems likely that at least a few hundred Hamas militants made it back alive, assuming that the hostage to Hamas ratio was something higher than 1:1.
 
I see we have some open apologists for HAMAS here.
I find the arugment that HAMAS is not dedicated to slaughter Jews becuase it not clearly say so to be ridiculous.
A. Actions speak louder then words
B. Seems to be that the total destruction of Israel, which is HAMAS self stated goal, would involve the slaughter of a lot of Jews.\
 
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Jedi said:
A nation must defend it's population. If Israel responds to this pogrom of 1400 men, women and children by giving them a bunch of carrots, no one is safe. Remember, Hamas does not want a 2 state solution, and does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Their goal is to slaughter Jews worldwide. What you're suggesting will just pave the way for the next massacre. Massacre 1400 Jews, win prizes.
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The issue is, what is the best way for Israel to defend its population. I would suggest taking revenge for Hamas attacks on Palestinian civilians, from the shooting of unarmed Palestinians in the West Bank, as the IDF stand, watch and do nothing, to the cutting off and forced expulsion inside Gaza, is only going to result in more attacks.
 
Nessie said:
The issue is, what is the best way for Israel to defend its population. I would suggest taking revenge for Hamas attacks on Palestinian civilians, from the shooting of unarmed Palestinians in the West Bank, as the IDF stand, watch and do nothing, to the cutting off and forced expulsion inside Gaza, is only going to result in more attacks.
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And allowing HAMAS to remain in power in GAZA will result in more attacks.
Allowing HAMAS to get away with it';s attack would be a disaster.
 
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