Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The issue is, what is the best way for Israel to defend its population. I would suggest taking revenge for Hamas attacks on Palestinian civilians, from the shooting of unarmed Palestinians in the West Bank, as the IDF stand, watch and do nothing, to the cutting off and forced expulsion inside Gaza, is only going to result in more attacks.

Ah, but that is defeatist anti-semist talk. Just because retaliating violence with bigger and better violence hasn't worked out in the past 70 years does not mean it won't work now.

 

[dudalb]

Ah, but that is defeatist anti-semist talk. Just because retaliating violence with bigger and better violence hasn't worked out in the past 70 years does not mean it won't work now.

SO you think Isreal should just surrender? Nice. That has worked so well for Jews in the past.

 

[dudalb]

Should HAMAS be allowed to get away with what it did on October 7th. Yes or No.

 

[theprestige]

Ah, but that is defeatist anti-semist talk. Just because retaliating violence with bigger and better violence hasn't worked out in the past 70 years does not mean it won't work now.

Absolute military victory, regime change, martial law, and cultural colonization has a pretty good track record everywhere the West has tried it in the past hundred years or so. It's not Israel's fault that the West decided that's not allowed anymore, after the successes with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. It's no coincidence that the West's pivot to half measures has had such a horrible track record in past 70 years.

And it's no secret that the alternative to doing it right is appeasement, and that appeasement has an even worse track record than the other thing. In fact, appeasement and its track record are so totally not a secret that it's hard to believe anyone would recommend them, who didn't desire the destruction of Israel. Further evidence of this desire is that you never see the appeaseniks urging the Palestinians to appease Israel for their own peace and safety.

 

[dudalb]

Absolute military victory, regime change, martial law, and cultural colonization has a pretty good track record everywhere the West has tried it in the past hundred years or so. It's not Israel's fault that the West decided that's not allowed anymore, after the successes with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. It's no coincidence that the West's pivot to half measures has had such a horrible track record in past 70 years.

And it's no secret that the alternative to doing it right is appeasement, and that appeasement has an even worse track record than the other thing. In fact, appeasement and its track record are so totally not a secret that it's hard to believe anyone would recommend them, who didn't desire the destruction of Israel. Further evidence of this desire is that you never see the appeaseniks urging the Palestinians to appease Israel for their own peace and safety.

That is too extreme for my taste. I have no love for colonialism.
And Nazi and Japan were special cases.
You seem to think the west could have uses these methods to maintain their empires. Thye could not have for economic reasons alone.
I agree that there are alot people in this thread who probably desire the destruction of Israel, they just don't say so in so many words.

 

[dudalb]

I also note how the Pro Palestinain people here want Israel to make all the concessions,with the Palestinains not making any.
I also not they seem less upset by Islamic Extremist then they are by Christian and Jewish extemism.

 

[theprestige]

That is too extreme for my taste. I have no love for colonialism.

Nobody loves literal colonialism. The whole point is that it's better to present your culture and its values, and change hearts and minds that way. There's a reason India still has affinity for the Anglosphere, even though it was literally colonized by England, and even though it's neighbors with China.

And Nazi and Japan were special cases.

Germany and Japan are the cases where existential enemies were purged of their imperialistic and genocidal urges, and brought onside as allies and exponents of liberal democracy. It didn't happen because we gave them liberal democracy first, and let them act out until they had a change of heart.

You seem to think the west could have uses these methods to maintain their empires. Thye could not have for economic reasons alone.

I don't seem to think anything of the kind. And even if that's somehow, implausibly, the way it seems to you in your head, it's not what I think at all.

I think that empires are unsustainable and anti-social in the modern age. I think the genius of how the west chose to treat Germany and Japan after the war is that it converted those nations from genocidal imperialists to voluntary allies and partners for peace, alongside a bunch of nations who were giving up on the imperial program already.

Nowadays, the only people still dreaming of empire aren't the liberal democracies of the west. It's people with delusions of grandeur and dreams of a New Caliphate, or a New Rome. History is pretty clear about how to deal with such people: Appeasement? Doesn't work. The other thing? Does.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I also note how the Pro Palestinain people here want Israel to make all the concessions,with the Palestinains not making any.
I also not they seem less upset by Islamic Extremist then they are by Christian and Jewish extemism.

No, that is what YOU interpret through your "Israel is 100% right and Palestinians are all evil and should be collectively punished" lens.

At the moment the 'concessions' Israel has made to the Palestinians in the past 70 years always come down to "We get to keep everything we took without any recompense, and you will be allowed to live semi free, provide you never get the power to actually engage us in an equal battle or our settlers need more land'
Again, similar to the concession Putin is willing to make to Ukraine to end the war.

I would hope Israel would make SOME concessions, but given the 70 year cycle of revenge I doubt that will ever happen, and thus they'll 'defeat' Hamas now by killing the ones responsible for this horrible attack and then leave the Gaza strip. Of course they'll keep up the economic blockade and do nothing to help repair the damage done, and then they, and you along with them, can be surprised at how evil the next generation of Palestinians is for hating Israel.

Of course this is anecdotal, but I remember reading an interview with Golda Meir a long time ago when I was young. There she spoke about having lived trough Pogroms and how she wanted to make a nation where that would never happen again the Jews. While at the same time sending the IDF to raid and destroy Palestinian homes because they might harbor PLO sympathizers. Even then I wondered if she realized that she was doing to others what was done to her in her youth. I doubt it though.

And that stubborn refusal to understand that HAMAS, the PLO and other terrorist organizations spring up BECAUSE of the treatment of all Palestinians by Israel, driving them into ever more desperate actions because they see no other way to get a from of justice, is what will cause this conflict to go on until one side eventually kills the other for good.

Heck even propping up a PA with money to ensure bread and games would probably work better than the current methods. Invest in the West Bank, kick out the settlers there and build infrastructure with healthcare and some universal basic income and free secular schooling. Have a police force under UN leadership with the right to also persecute Israeli citizens. Promise to at least think about east Jerusalem at some unspecified point in the future, while ensuring a standard of living higher than the neighboring countries and I strongly suspect the willingness to join insane movements like Hamas or Hezbollah will rapidly decline.

 

[Ziggurat]

At the moment the 'concessions' Israel has made to the Palestinians in the past 70 years always come down to "We get to keep everything we took without any recompense, and you will be allowed to live semi free, provide you never get the power to actually engage us in an equal battle or our settlers need more land'

That's so far from the reality of the situation, I don't know where to even start.

I would hope Israel would make SOME concessions

Israel has made lots of concessions.

And it really only makes two immutable demands: no right of return (because with that, Israel cannot guarantee the safety of its citizens), and stop killing Jews. Which of those is unreasonable?

 

[Jedi]

Hamas is not ruling the West Bank (yet). Why is Israel undermining the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank by ignoring settlers killing Palestinians in the West Bank.

I'm not a fan of the settlements, but Israel arrests and sentences settlers to prison. I can look up examples but show me examples of the PA arresting anyone for attacking Jews, settlers or not. they (and/or their families) end up getting compensated (pay-for-slay).

the point i'm making is that you can't stop individuals for committing crimes, but the govts (Israel and PA) need to hold them accountable. Only Israel does that.

 

[Jedi]

This is true, but then again, the Palestinians see the land Israel in on as their land, unfairly occupied by European colonists and that they are trying to defend their nation. So by your argument they should attempt to evict those that took their land.

not sure what your argument is here. Can you clarify? There is a difference between reality and narrative.

Not personally I feel that that by now has become impossible, but as long as Israel and the west keep treating the Palestinians as unreasonable natives that should be happy a civilized people is guiding them to a better tomorrow by letting them beg for the scraps Israel does not want things are not going to get better.

Don't get your argument here either. They don't have to beg for scraps, they just have to agree to a land for peace deal and stick to it.
and don't forget that Hamas will never accept a jewish state. their goal is total destruction of Israel. not much to negotiate there.


I agree that the split Gaza/West bank was never viable. Ideally Israel would take the Gaza strip, add an equal area of land to the West bank, return Eastern Jerusalem and then withdraw completely from the West bank, stopping all sanctions on that area.
And yes, that does include allowing the PA there to develop as a real nation with an independent foreign policy and an army.

again, they have to stop attacking israel. blockade is a response to rockets not the cause of them. when they do that they will have their state.

But the reality learns that Israel will only allow an independent Palestinian nation in the way Putin wants an independent Ukraine.

reality, again, is that hamas (and PA as well) have never given up their desire to eradicate Israel. when they do, there will be peace.

 

[Jedi]

Remember the current Israeli government does not recognise the right to exist of an independent Palestinian nation.

It's not that they don't recognize their right to exist, it's that previous govts have repeatedly recognized this and it's only brought more terror. so current govt has realized that the PA will never accept any peace agreement. When the PA wants to get serious about stopping the terror, even the current govt will agree as this is the will of the people.

What the most current statement by Hamas towards the Jewish people actually says. It should be noted that Hamas has altered its views over time. Hamas no longer (and arguably never) advocated slaughter of Jews worldwide.

https://doi.org/10.1525/jps.2017.46.4.100

?? I'm not sure what this article is (i'm just seeing an abstract). can you quote the relative section? Hamas charter still says to kill all jews worldwide so i'm not sure what you're saying. the events of oct 7 should have made that pretty clear.


This should not be interpreted as an agreement with the views of Hamas nor a defence of their criminal acts.

It does however mean that I believe that we should not use myths to excuse a failure to seek peace. just as there are many political parties in the Israeli government, and any negotiations will need to recognise that so any negotiations with Palestinian representatives will need to recognise a breadth of views from the secular PA to islamist groups, whether involving Hamas as such or related groups. it should also be recognised that hamas has demonstrated an ability to alter their views over time.

All proof from hamas, their charter, their interviews, their actions, say otherwise. show me where they altered their views.

 

[Jedi]

I do wonder if a Federal one nation solution is possible. A secular Federal constitution and institutions based on Jerusalem a bit like DC or ACT, but allowing a Jewish state with Tel Aviv as its capital and Gaza and the West Bank as Palestinian Islamic states. There may even be a desire to have more than one Jewish state, a predominantly secular one and an orthodox one. The right of return could be delegated, if the 'Palestinian' states felt they could accommodate historic Palestinians refugees from e.g. Lebanon or Syria then they should be allowed to.

welcome to utopia.

 

[Jedi]

I see we have some open apologists for HAMAS here.
I find the arugment that HAMAS is not dedicated to slaughter Jews becuase it not clearly say so to be ridiculous.
A. Actions speak louder then words
B. Seems to be that the total destruction of Israel, which is HAMAS self stated goal, would involve the slaughter of a lot of Jews.\

ah, but they do clearly say so in both interviews and their charter.
some quotes from the charter:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

article 7: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
(where can i get a Gharkad tree?)

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

reality, again, is that hamas (and PA as well) have never given up their desire to eradicate Israel. when they do, there will be peace.

@1 The province of Palestine had been a single administrative entity for nearly 2 millennia, though never really independent. When the Ottoman empire collapsed the British took over. Under their rule a large amount of European settlers were imported. Because they felt that a 4000 year old book told them they should own that land, not the brown people living there now.

@2 The then forced division split the province into Israel, which contains the best farm land, at least one good harbor and which is a contiguous landmass containing about 60% of all the land of the province, and the scraps. After which a constant and deliberate ethnic cleansing has taken place forcing the indigenous population away from the good parts, with the settlers aiming to also remove the last good bit from the West Bank. The Gaza strip is just utterly nonviable as a nation regardless.

@3,4 I agree that for peace the Palestinian government, whatever form it takes would of course need to accept Israel. It is impossible to reverse the mistakes of the past by forcing yet another ethnic cleansing. But to do so the Palestinians do need some actual concessions. So a part of land that is viable as a nation and at least the acknowledgement that taking their country as payment for the Holocaust was not right.

 

[Jedi]

The issue is, what is the best way for Israel to defend its population. I would suggest taking revenge for Hamas attacks on Palestinian civilians, from the shooting of unarmed Palestinians in the West Bank, as the IDF stand, watch and do nothing, to the cutting off and forced expulsion inside Gaza, is only going to result in more attacks.

justice is not revenge. hamas can not be negotiated with any more than ISIS. they need to be dismantled. Hopefully and more peaceful govt that works on building a Palestinian nation can take their place.

 

[Jedi]

No, that is what YOU interpret through your "Israel is 100% right and Palestinians are all evil and should be collectively punished" lens.

At the moment the 'concessions' Israel has made to the Palestinians in the past 70 years always come down to "We get to keep everything we took without any recompense, and you will be allowed to live semi free, provide you never get the power to actually engage us in an equal battle or our settlers need more land'
Again, similar to the concession Putin is willing to make to Ukraine to end the war.

I would hope Israel would make SOME concessions, but given the 70 year cycle of revenge I doubt that will ever happen, and thus they'll 'defeat' Hamas now by killing the ones responsible for this horrible attack and then leave the Gaza strip. Of course they'll keep up the economic blockade and do nothing to help repair the damage done, and then they, and you along with them, can be surprised at how evil the next generation of Palestinians is for hating Israel.

Of course this is anecdotal, but I remember reading an interview with Golda Meir a long time ago when I was young. There she spoke about having lived trough Pogroms and how she wanted to make a nation where that would never happen again the Jews. While at the same time sending the IDF to raid and destroy Palestinian homes because they might harbor PLO sympathizers. Even then I wondered if she realized that she was doing to others what was done to her in her youth. I doubt it though.

And that stubborn refusal to understand that HAMAS, the PLO and other terrorist organizations spring up BECAUSE of the treatment of all Palestinians by Israel, driving them into ever more desperate actions because they see no other way to get a from of justice, is what will cause this conflict to go on until one side eventually kills the other for good.

Heck even propping up a PA with money to ensure bread and games would probably work better than the current methods. Invest in the West Bank, kick out the settlers there and build infrastructure with healthcare and some universal basic income and free secular schooling. Have a police force under UN leadership with the right to also persecute Israeli citizens. Promise to at least think about east Jerusalem at some unspecified point in the future, while ensuring a standard of living higher than the neighboring countries and I strongly suspect the willingness to join insane movements like Hamas or Hezbollah will rapidly decline.

can you tell me what Israel 'took' and how it came to be that they 'took' it?

 

[Jedi]

@1 The province of Palestine had been a single administrative entity for nearly 2 millennia, though never really independent. When the Ottoman empire collapsed the British took over. Under their rule a large amount of European settlers were imported. Because they felt that a 4000 year old book told them they should own that land, not the brown people living there now.

@2 The then forced division split the province into Israel, which contains the best farm land, at least one good harbor and which is a contiguous landmass containing about 60% of all the land of the province, and the scraps. After which a constant and deliberate ethnic cleansing has taken place forcing the indigenous population away from the good parts, with the settlers aiming to also remove the last good bit from the West Bank. The Gaza strip is just utterly nonviable as a nation regardless.

@3,4 I agree that for peace the Palestinian government, whatever form it takes would of course need to accept Israel. It is impossible to reverse the mistakes of the past by forcing yet another ethnic cleansing. But to do so the Palestinians do need some actual concessions. So a part of land that is viable as a nation and at least the acknowledgement that taking their country as payment for the Holocaust was not right.

honestly, this is so wrong i don't even know where to begin

 

[Planigale]

Absolute military victory, regime change, martial law, and cultural colonization has a pretty good track record everywhere the West has tried it in the past hundred years or so. It's not Israel's fault that the West decided that's not allowed anymore, after the successes with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. It's no coincidence that the West's pivot to half measures has had such a horrible track record in past 70 years.

And it's no secret that the alternative to doing it right is appeasement, and that appeasement has an even worse track record than the other thing. In fact, appeasement and its track record are so totally not a secret that it's hard to believe anyone would recommend them, who didn't desire the destruction of Israel. Further evidence of this desire is that you never see the appeaseniks urging the Palestinians to appease Israel for their own peace and safety.

Butwhat both these did not involve was placing settlements in those countries, it did allow them to become autonomous nations with effective armies and membership of the UN. This is not what is proposed for Palestine.

Nice rhetoric but poor analogy.

 

[Planigale]

reality, again, is that hamas (and PA as well) have never given up their desire to eradicate Israel. when they do, there will be peace.

Israel has not given up its refusal to accept an independent Palestinian nation state.

So this is the starting position for negotiations.

You want pre-conditions on PA etc. that you do not require for Israel. I would have thought the first step in negotiations is mutual recognition of statehood.