Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[dudalb]

(Aside: What is happening at your end that causes such a mish-mash of spelling consistently?)

While Israel has no intention at this present time of letting HAMAS leaders off the hook, there is unquestionably going to be a HAMAS component in any future Gaza political arrangement.
HAMAS-run day-cares, schools, summer camps, clinics, mosques, libraries, construction projects, banking, etc.
I'm not making excuses for HAMAS. I'm just pointing out that Gaza society from here on out is going to require organization & planning, and HAMAS is capable of that, once they lay down their weapons and relinquish their claims to "all Arab lands" (meaning, from the river to the sea).

BS. HAMAS has shown it can never b e t5rusted with power.
When will you give up this whole "Give extremists power and they will become pragmatic and moderate their behavior:? As far as HAMAS goes, that went up in smoke last Satruday.

 

[Brainster]

The situation in Israel is more akin to the situation in Ukraine. Neighboring power(s) propping up "separatist" claims to destabilize a sovereign state, justify aggression, and ultimately create conditions for annexation and genocide.

It's been a long time since Albion was that perfidious.

The solution in Ukraine isn't for everyone to put down their arms and just get along. The solution is to beat perfidious Moscow violently about the head and neck until it has no other choice but to piss off back to its failed state and leave Ukraine alone.

The solution in Israel is similar.

Indeed. When has a war ever been won without one side being totally defeated on the battlefield, to the point where they sued for peace?

 

[Brainster]

(Aside: What is happening at your end that causes such a mish-mash of spelling consistently?)

Best guess is fat fingers and poor eyes.

 

[angrysoba]

Indeed. When has a war ever been won without one side being totally defeated on the battlefield, to the point where they sued for peace?

Well, arguably, for the US, Vietnam and Afghanistan.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Indeed. When has a war ever been won without one side being totally defeated on the battlefield, to the point where they sued for peace?

who is the other side here?
Israel made it clear that the only group in a position to sue for peace is the one they want to eliminate.

 

[Aridas]

And chamberlain thought he could do business with Hitler.
Bibi is an idiot, but brining him up constantly is just an attempt to shift attention way from the horrors that HAMAS did last Saturday because HAMAS is considered to be on the Left.

Uhh... What?

Evidence. Now.

Either that or shut up with what sure looks like vicious BS in line with the usual fantasy-based lies you spout about "The Left."

 

[Aridas]

who is the other side here?
Israel made it clear that the only group in a position to sue for peace is the one they want to eliminate.

The PLO, maybe? They do not currently have control over Gaza after Hamas broke Gaza away, but their power in Gaza could be restored with Hamas' loss of power?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The PLO, maybe? They do not currently have control over Gaza after Hamas broke Gaza away, but their power in Gaza could be restored with Hamas' loss of power?

with a lot of Israeli assistance and concessions - I guess.
But who would take the job?

and how would they get legitimization?
from either side?

 

[Planigale]

An IDF reserve warrant officer identified only by her first name, Avigayil, recounted finding maimed bodies, per Reuters. Multiple cases of rape were also discovered during forensic examinations.

"We've seen dismembered bodies with their arms and feet chopped off, people that were beheaded, a child that was beheaded," Avigayil told reporters.

I really didn't want to even nitpick this one, but really, c'mon now.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/what-we-know-about-three-widespread-israel-hamas-war-claims/

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/...es-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine

I do not deny that a massacre occurred. What is questionable are the inflammatory claims that Hamas beheaded babies, even more so the claim circulated that 40 babies were beheaded.

We know little about the victims. I have seen one reference from IDF that 20% were active service military. I have seen no break down by age and gender. I have seen reports that grenades were used, people were shot and buildings and cars set on fire. Beyond that there is little confirmed. The forensic examination may take some time, and for bodies recovered from burnt cars or buildings it may be difficult to know exact cause of death.

 

[steenkh]

Wrong. Letting Hamas survive to attack again IS Anti Semrtic.
FUnny how many of your Euros are carrying HAMAS's waters.

HAMAS is ISIS. End of story.

You are certainly using persuasive arguments

First of all, letting the revenge cycle go on and on would be anti-Semitic according to your expanded definition. Secondly, it is just as strange how your hatred divides everything up in black and white. Apparently, you couldn’t find something worse to say about Hamas than that they are “ISIS”, putting two evil organisations in the same basket, although they have practically nothing in common.

This is a situation nobody can win. Hamas cannot be exterminated, even though we would all want it (yes, even I would want it). Even if Israel would seek a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem, there would be plenty of Palestinians outside Gaza and the West Bank who would continue the revenge cycle. A defanged Hamas is all Israel can hope for, but the more war crimes Israel commits to achieve this, the more support in money and weapons will flow to a resurrected Hamas. Is that a good thing?

If Israel would attempt to react with moderation (and there are signs that they will not rush into the fully fledged genocide that some leaders proclaimed) there is the chance that they can weaken Hamas sufficiently that non-Hamas Palestinians can gain traction. But this will be difficult if the Palestinians are held in enforced poverty.

Hamas might still survive, but could be forced to moderation if moderate Palestinians gain influence.

 

[Darat]

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/what-we-know-about-three-widespread-israel-hamas-war-claims/

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/...es-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine

I do not deny that a massacre occurred. What is questionable are the inflammatory claims that Hamas beheaded babies, even more so the claim circulated that 40 babies were beheaded.

We know little about the victims. I have seen one reference from IDF that 20% were active service military. I have seen no break down by age and gender. I have seen reports that grenades were used, people were shot and buildings and cars set on fire. Beyond that there is little confirmed. The forensic examination may take some time, and for bodies recovered from burnt cars or buildings it may be difficult to know exact cause of death.

As quoted in the article: "It’s a dead baby. Does it matter if it’s burning or decapitation?" I tend to agree with that, I'd also add in by bullet, by being crushed in a building and pretty much any other way.

Whether some victims were tortured before being killed is a different question and issue.

 

[steenkh]

As quoted in the article: "It’s a dead baby. Does it matter if it’s burning or decapitation?" I tend to agree with that, I'd also add in by bullet, by being crushed in a building and pretty much any other way.

I agree that for the baby it does not matter, but deliberate decapitation as opposed to collateral damage is a notch up on the “bad guy” scale.

 

[Darat]

I agree that for the baby it does not matter, but deliberate decapitation as opposed to collateral damage is a notch up on the “bad guy” scale.

Quite sincerely why? Why does it make it worse if they decapitate the babies rather than use a bullet or a rocket?

 

[lobosrul5]

The Omagh bombing killed 29 and injured 220. The population go NI is 1.8 million. The population of Israel is 9 million. So the Omagh bombing is proportionately equivalent to 150 deaths and one thousand wounded. So 10% of deaths but a similar number involved.

Over the period of the troubles 1,800 NI civilians were killed numerically this is similar to Israeli civilians killed over a similar time period so proportionately a greater number. Then there were the Brighton bombs,

I think you have no idea how intrusive terrorism was in NI. Far more so than in Israel.

I think I actually have a very good idea of how intrusive it was. I also know that Sinn Fein disavowed the bombing, and THEY were the ones negotiating. Not an IRA splinter group. The comparison between now and Ireland would be if the negations in 1998 were being held between the UK government and The Real IRA. The negotiations would've ended after the bombing.

It also doesn't matter that Israel's population is larger than NI. A single bombing isn't much of a comparison to a days long gun battle with roving bands of hit cells who massacred ~1000 people (many children), kidnapped ~200, and wounded ~3000!

 

[JoeMorgue]

Quite sincerely why? Why does it make it worse if they decapitate the babies rather than use a bullet or a rocket?

//This is super hard to put into words, fair?//

Because it takes effort. Wasted effort. Time and effort above and beyond what it takes to just end the person's life. It means the act of killing is enjoyable, not the state of wanting the other person dead.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

//This is super hard to put into words, fair?//

Because it takes effort. Wasted effort. Time and effort above and beyond what it takes to just end the person's life. It means the act of killing is enjoyable, not the state of wanting the other person dead.

not clear that it does

 

[lobosrul5]

not clear that it does

Its the killing innocents less efficiently as possible to make it more gruesome and horrifying to the surviving population that is whats clear to me. It makes it extra-special-bad. Of course, thats terrorism.

 

[Planigale]

Quite sincerely why? Why does it make it worse if they decapitate the babies rather than use a bullet or a rocket?

I am sympathetic to that PoV.

However, it seems clear that in comments made by e.g. the POTUS beheading babies makes this terrorism, and behaviour equivalent to ISIS. If you take the view that killing babies as collateral damage when throwing a grenade or dropping a bomb is equivalent, then one is in danger of labelling actions by the IDF as terrorism.

You must be careful to not suggest any equivalence between Palestinian babies killed by the IDF in bombing and those Israeli babies killed by Hamas. That would be anti-semitic.

Another example is that a US-Palestinian child hacked to death in the US is a victim of a hate crime but not of terrorism.

You just need to remember the rule Palestinians can commit terrorist acts but cannot be the victims of terrorism. (Vice versa for Israelis.)

 

[trustbutverify]

As quoted in the article: "It’s a dead baby. Does it matter if it’s burning or decapitation?" I tend to agree with that, I'd also add in by bullet, by being crushed in a building and pretty much any other way.

Whether some victims were tortured before being killed is a different question and issue.

Before or after said baby is dead?

 

[Aridas]

Quite sincerely why? Why does it make it worse if they decapitate the babies rather than use a bullet or a rocket?

There's a few things that could be pointed at, but the first thing that I'd go with is that deliberate beheading means that the one beheaded was definitely a target and not "just" collateral damage, with all that entails. I think I'll also point out that it speaks very darkly about the mental processes and emotions in play.