Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Nessie]

Do you not think that destroying Hamas and its capacity to rain bombs on Israel is a good thing?

If not, I detect an antisemite.

There is a choice. Open negotiations and talks with the devil you know, or kill the devil you know and wait for the next one to appear. The former has a greater chance of earlier cease fires and ending civilian suffering. The latter just perpetuates the cycle of violence.

When the British were fighting the IRA, the solution started with open negotiations between the leadership, however unpalatable that was. Destroying the IRA, which would have been a virtual impossibility, would have just resulted in a new IRA rising up, because the existing grievances were still present. By negotiating with the enemy, the Troubles came to an end and many civilians are still alive today because of that. The cycle of violence has been largely broken.

Your anti-Semite radar is faulty. Your argument also works the other way around, so, would destroying Israel and its ability to rain bombs on Gaza not be a good thing? Lots of people think that way.

 

[steenkh]

Do you not think that destroying Hamas and its capacity to rain bombs on Israel is a good thing?

If not, I detect an antisemite.

If destroying Hamas means perpetuating the suffering in Gaza so that a new Hamas will arise from the ashes, then it is not a good thing.

Wishing for a political solution that stops the violence without destroying Hamas is not antisemitic.

 

[Nessie]

TV presenter Patrick Kielty, whose father was murdered during the Troubles, on the present crisis in Israel

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...ishes-for-middle-east-miracle/a944347656.html

The only solution is for all of the leaders to stop ordering fighting and talk, so that civilians don't pointlessly die. Learn to live in peace.

 

[lobosrul5]

There is a choice. Open negotiations and talks with the devil you know, or kill the devil you know and wait for the next one to appear. The former has a greater chance of earlier cease fires and ending civilian suffering. The latter just perpetuates the cycle of violence.

When the British were fighting the IRA, the solution started with open negotiations between the leadership, however unpalatable that was. Destroying the IRA, which would have been a virtual impossibility, would have just resulted in a new IRA rising up, because the existing grievances were still present. By negotiating with the enemy, the Troubles came to an end and many civilians are still alive today because of that. The cycle of violence has been largely broken.

Your anti-Semite radar is faulty. Your argument also works the other way around, so, would destroying Israel and its ability to rain bombs on Gaza not be a good thing? Lots of people think that way.

But the IRA called a ceasefire when they opened negotiations. And they largely stuck to it, other than splinter groups which they dissavowed. Do you think negotiations would've been successful had they murdered over 1000 protestants in 1998?

 

[Nessie]

But the IRA called a ceasefire when they opened negotiations. And they largely stuck to it, other than splinter groups which they dissavowed. Do you think negotiations would've been successful had they murdered over 1000 protestants in 1998?

No, it is not a direct equivalence. There are more hurdles to the peaceful solution in Israel than there were in NI.

 

[lionking]

No, it is not a direct equivalence. There are more hurdles to the peaceful solution in Israel than there were in NI.

It’s nowhere near equivalent. As I said earlier, in Ireland the citizens decided they wanted an end to the violence and, even more importantly, it is a democracy. Take off your Irish goggles when talking about this.

 

[Planigale]

But the IRA called a ceasefire when they opened negotiations. And they largely stuck to it, other than splinter groups which they dissavowed. Do you think negotiations would've been successful had they murdered over 1000 protestants in 1998?

The Omagh bombing killed 29 and injured 220. The population go NI is 1.8 million. The population of Israel is 9 million. So the Omagh bombing is proportionately equivalent to 150 deaths and one thousand wounded. So 10% of deaths but a similar number involved.

Over the period of the troubles 1,800 NI civilians were killed numerically this is similar to Israeli civilians killed over a similar time period so proportionately a greater number. Then there were the Brighton bombs,

I think you have no idea how intrusive terrorism was in NI. Far more so than in Israel.

 

[Nessie]

Northern Ireland, the various paramilitary/terrorist groups, the Protestant and Catholic churches, civilian peace protests, the UK, US and Irish Governments, provide an example of what would end the conflict in Israel.

As much as each side would find it difficult, they need to talk, compromise and condemn all violence, including violence by their own side. That is how the Troubles ended.

 

[theprestige]

No, it is not a direct equivalence. There are more hurdles to the peaceful solution in Israel than there were in NI.

The situation in Israel is more akin to the situation in Ukraine. Neighboring power(s) propping up "separatist" claims to destabilize a sovereign state, justify aggression, and ultimately create conditions for annexation and genocide.

It's been a long time since Albion was that perfidious.

The solution in Ukraine isn't for everyone to put down their arms and just get along. The solution is to beat perfidious Moscow violently about the head and neck until it has no other choice but to piss off back to its failed state and leave Ukraine alone.

The solution in Israel is similar.

 

[Planigale]

The situation in Israel is more akin to the situation in Ukraine. Neighboring power(s) propping up "separatist" claims to destabilize a sovereign state, justify aggression, and ultimately create conditions for annexation and genocide.

It's been a long time since Albion was that perfidious.

The solution in Ukraine isn't for everyone to put down their arms and just get along. The solution is to beat perfidious Moscow violently about the head and neck until it has no other choice but to piss off back to its failed state and leave Ukraine alone.

The solution in Israel is similar.

But peace before that happens (if it happens) would be better and more likely to be permanent.

It would be ideal if everyone put down their arms and got along, lots more people on both sides alive and uninjured. i don't know why you would be against this and in favour of prolonged killing and destruction, I assume you are male, and think violence is glamorous and somehow virtuous in itself.

 

[webfusion]

Forensics Results

Not helped by the Israeli PM and the POTUS putting out false information (beheaded babies).

An IDF reserve warrant officer identified only by her first name, Avigayil, recounted finding maimed bodies, per Reuters. Multiple cases of rape were also discovered during forensic examinations.

"We've seen dismembered bodies with their arms and feet chopped off, people that were beheaded, a child that was beheaded," Avigayil told reporters.

I really didn't want to even nitpick this one, but really, c'mon now.

 

[Planigale]

The situation in Israel is more akin to the situation in Ukraine. Neighboring power(s) propping up "separatist" claims to destabilize a sovereign state, justify aggression, and ultimately create conditions for annexation and genocide.

It's been a long time since Albion was that perfidious.

The solution in Ukraine isn't for everyone to put down their arms and just get along. The solution is to beat perfidious Moscow violently about the head and neck until it has no other choice but to piss off back to its failed state and leave Ukraine alone.

The solution in Israel is similar.

There was of course cross border issues, with the border providing shelter from pursuit. There was funding from abroad for terrorism from states such as Libya and Communist states, and informally from persons in the US. The US provided sanctuary for wanted terrorists. The US was certainly less strong in support of the UK government that it appears to be for the Israeli government. Would the US ever have countenanced the Bogside having water, power, fuel, and food cut off and being bombed by the RAF? Protestant paramilitaries were never permitted to shoot catholics whilst the police / army stood and watched as we see happening on the West Bank.

 

[Nessie]

The situation in Israel is more akin to the situation in Ukraine. Neighboring power(s) propping up "separatist" claims to destabilize a sovereign state, justify aggression, and ultimately create conditions for annexation and genocide.

It's been a long time since Albion was that perfidious.

The solution in Ukraine isn't for everyone to put down their arms and just get along. The solution is to beat perfidious Moscow violently about the head and neck until it has no other choice but to piss off back to its failed state and leave Ukraine alone.

The solution in Israel is similar.

The solution is negotiation, compromise and all sides leadership condemning all violence. When Russia and Ukraine are still fighting in 30 years time, over disputed territory, that neither side can win, then, maybe, they too will have to accept it is time to lay down arms and talk.

 

[Nessie]

...Protestant paramilitaries were never permitted to shoot catholics whilst the police / army stood and watched as we see happening on the West Bank.

It was not as blatant as one video of a shooting in the West bank I saw, but there was collusion and sympathy between the RUC, army and Protestant paramilitaries. They did, at times, stand by and do nothing as Catholics were attacked, abused and burned out of their homes.

 

[theprestige]

But peace before that happens (if it happens) would be better and more likely to be permanent.

It's never going to happen, and there's never going to be permanent peace for Israel, because its neighbors have a vested interest in preventing that. Ukraine is in a similar position. Ireland and Northern Ireland are not.

 

[theprestige]

There was of course cross border issues, with the border providing shelter from pursuit. There was funding from abroad for terrorism from states such as Libya and Communist states, and informally from persons in the US. The US provided sanctuary for wanted terrorists. The US was certainly less strong in support of the UK government that it appears to be for the Israeli government. Would the US ever have countenanced the Bogside having water, power, fuel, and food cut off and being bombed by the RAF? Protestant paramilitaries were never permitted to shoot catholics whilst the police / army stood and watched as we see happening on the West Bank.

Like I said, the situations in Ireland and Israel are dissimilar.

 

[theprestige]

The solution is negotiation, compromise and all sides leadership condemning all violence. When Russia and Ukraine are still fighting in 30 years time, over disputed territory, that neither side can win, then, maybe, they too will have to accept it is time to lay down arms and talk.

The Arab side doesn't want that solution. And Russia has been playing this sick game with all its neighbors, for going on a hundred years now.

 

[alfaniner]

the REAL battle here, as far as the Israeli government is concerned, is: what do we need to do not to get all of the blame for the hundreds of dead citizens?

Adding hundreds in fighting is not going to help.
But putting everyone in uniform and making them guard the fence might.

I think one of the problems is that they don't have one "main guy" to go after (as far as I know). You know, the mastermind of the whole thing. People need a target.

 

[Kestrel]

It's never going to happen, and there's never going to be permanent peace for Israel, because its neighbors have a vested interest in preventing that. Ukraine is in a similar position. Ireland and Northern Ireland are not.

The current government of Israel needs the support of ultra orthodox settler communities to stay in power. The price for that support is allowing the settlers to keep taking Palestinian land. Long term peace requires reigning in the settlers.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The Arab side doesn't want that solution. And Russia has been playing this sick game with all its neighbors, for going on a hundred years now.

To be fair, Israel isn't really interested in a real solution either, as that would mean giving up part of the land their holy book says is theirs by divine right.
Peace came close during the negotiations with the PLO, but then a religious nut killed the Prime Minister for suggesting that maybe some actual concessions needed to be done on the Israeli side as well.