Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[theprestige]

If destroying Hamas means perpetuating the suffering in Gaza so that a new Hamas will arise from the ashes, then it is not a good thing.

Wishing for a political solution that stops the violence without destroying Hamas is not antisemitic.

There will always be an endless procession of new Hamases. There are too many Arab governments who see strategic value in maintaining a pipeline of jihadist guerrilla groups. The goal is not to stop another Hamas from arising. The goal is to ensure the next Hamas doesn't have the foothold in Gaza that this one enjoys.

 

[Nessie]

The Arab side doesn't want that solution. And Russia has been playing this sick game with all its neighbors, for going on a hundred years now.

I have not been arguing that there can be a solution, I have been arguing what the best solution is, as exampled by the ending of the Troubles. I agree with you that there are circumstances in Israel that mean the solution cannot, at this time, or in the near future, be achieved.

The minimum required is for Israelis to elect a government prepared to talk and compromise, and for a Palestinian leadership to emerge that wants the same.

 

[webfusion]

There will always be an endless procession of new Hamases. There are too many Arab governments who see strategic value in maintaining a pipeline of jihadist guerrilla groups. The goal is not to stop another Hamas from arising. The goal is to ensure the next Hamas doesn't have the foothold in Gaza that this one enjoys.

HAMAS was/is an Islamic Social Services Organization, first and foremost.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1057610X.2014.995565
That original political and NGO functionality has been subsumed within the violent jihadist (armed) elements. When guys like Sinwar and Deif are eliminated, the Israelis will be left dealing with bureaucratic and functionary HAMAS guys, whose tasks should include all sorts of reclamation efforts that lead Gaza back from the brink.

More and more, I see the "NewState" Program as being reasonable and implementable.

 

[dudalb]

Let's get realL Israel will never allow HAMAS to keep contorl in Gaza. And I for one, i can't blame them.
That some epole here are still making excuses for HAMAS ishouws how low this forum has ballen.

 

[dudalb]

There is a choice. Open negotiations and talks with the devil you know, or kill the devil you know and wait for the next one to appear. The former has a greater chance of earlier cease fires and ending civilian suffering. The latter just perpetuates the cycle of violence.

When the British were fighting the IRA, the solution started with open negotiations between the leadership, however unpalatable that was. Destroying the IRA, which would have been a virtual impossibility, would have just resulted in a new IRA rising up, because the existing grievances were still present. By negotiating with the enemy, the Troubles came to an end and many civilians are still alive today because of that. The cycle of violence has been largely broken.

Your anti-Semite radar is faulty. Your argument also works the other way around, so, would destroying Israel and its ability to rain bombs on Gaza not be a good thing? Lots of people think that way.[/QUOTE}

Please. The comparasion of the IRA with HAMAS is a bad one. The IRA, at it's worse , never did the things that HAMAS did.
Making a deal with HAMAS is tellling every extremist group that barbaric behavior pays.

 

[dudalb]

I have not been arguing that there can be a solution, I have been arguing what the best solution is, as exampled by the ending of the Troubles. I agree with you that there are circumstances in Israel that mean the solution cannot, at this time, or in the near future, be achieved.

The minimum required is for Israelis to elect a government prepared to talk and compromise, and for a Palestinian leadership to emerge that wants the same.

And I maintain that is a horrid comparasion.
Your wanting ot baaically let HAMAS off the hook is disgusitng.

 

[dudalb]

The current government of Israel needs the support of ultra orthodox settler communities to stay in power. The price for that support is allowing the settlers to keep taking Palestinian land. Long term peace requires reigning in the settlers.

Agreed, but that does not address the current crisis.
And I suggest that peace also requires the Palestinins to get rid of the terrorists.
But then one sided criticism is pretty much dogme on the left....

 

[dudalb]

If destroying Hamas means perpetuating the suffering in Gaza so that a new Hamas will arise from the ashes, then it is not a good thing.

Wishing for a political solution that stops the violence without destroying Hamas is not antisemitic.

Wrong. Letting Hamas survive to attack again IS Anti Semrtic.
FUnny how many of your Euros are carrying HAMAS's waters.

 

[dudalb]

But the IRA called a ceasefire when they opened negotiations. And they largely stuck to it, other than splinter groups which they dissavowed. Do you think negotiations would've been successful had they murdered over 1000 protestants in 1998?

And, as bad as some of their actions were the IRA never targeted children and took civilians as hostages.
The Ireland comparasion is clutching at straws, frankly. Truth is, a lot of people
here are de facto, whether inteonal or not, are letting HAMAS off the hook for thei action.

 

[dudalb]

And I see no one has noted a Second US Carrier Task force, built around the "USS Dwight D Eisenhower" is on it's way to the Eastern Meditrrean, and Iran just issued a threas to escaltate the war if Israeli "Aggresion" against Gaza continues.
Someone on CNN put it beautifully: "It is going to get worse before it gets worse".

 

[dudalb]

And I see no one has noted a Second US Carrier Task force, built around the "USS Dwight D Eisenhower" is on it's way to the Eastern Meditrrean, and Iran just issued a threas to escaltate the war if Israeli "Aggresion" against Gaza continues.
Someone on CNN put it beautifully: "It is going to get worse before it gets worse".

 

[dudalb]

Israel will never accept HAMAS, and will not let HAMAS remain in control of Gaza. Never.

 

[dudalb]

If destroying Hamas means perpetuating the suffering in Gaza so that a new Hamas will arise from the ashes, then it is not a good thing.

Wishing for a political solution that stops the violence without destroying Hamas is not antisemitic.

HAMAS is ISIS. End of story.

 

[dudalb]

Biden might visit Israel and Egypt later this week.
I do not even want tothink about what the security problemswill be.
And A nightmare scenario would be if anything happens to Biden.

 

[dudalb]

Biden might visit Israel and Egypt later this week.
I do not even want tothink about what the security problemswill be.
And A nightmare scenario would be if anything happens to Biden.

 

[webfusion]

Let's get realL Israel will never allow HAMAS to keep contorl in Gaza. And I for one, i can't blame them.
That some epole here are still making excuses for HAMAS ishouws how low this forum has ballen.

(Aside: What is happening at your end that causes such a mish-mash of spelling consistently?)

While Israel has no intention at this present time of letting HAMAS leaders off the hook, there is unquestionably going to be a HAMAS component in any future Gaza political arrangement.
HAMAS-run day-cares, schools, summer camps, clinics, mosques, libraries, construction projects, banking, etc.
I'm not making excuses for HAMAS. I'm just pointing out that Gaza society from here on out is going to require organization & planning, and HAMAS is capable of that, once they lay down their weapons and relinquish their claims to "all Arab lands" (meaning, from the river to the sea).

 

[webfusion]

Biden might visit Israel and Egypt later this week.
I do not even want tothink about what the security problemswill be.
And A nightmare scenario would be if anything happens to Biden.

If anything happens to Joe Biden, Americans will have Kamala Harris as their President.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Israel will never accept HAMAS, and will not let HAMAS remain in control of Gaza. Never.

Maybe not officially, but Bibi did for all intends and purposes.
He thought he had them handled so he could focus on colonizing the West Bank for his political supporters, i.e. settlers.

 

[dudalb]

Maybe not officially, but Bibi did for all intends and purposes.
He thought he had them handled so he could focus on colonizing the West Bank for his political supporters, i.e. settlers.

And chamberlain thought he could do business with Hitler.
Bibi is an idiot, but brining him up constantly is just an attempt to shift attention way from the horrors that HAMAS did last Saturday because HAMAS is considered to be on the Left.

 

[dudalb]

(Aside: What is happening at your end that causes such a mish-mash of spelling consistently?)

While Israel has no intention at this present time of letting HAMAS leaders off the hook, there is unquestionably going to be a HAMAS component in any future Gaza political arrangement.
HAMAS-run day-cares, schools, summer camps, clinics, mosques, libraries, construction projects, banking, etc.
I'm not making excuses for HAMAS. I'm just pointing out that Gaza society from here on out is going to require organization & planning, and HAMAS is capable of that, once they lay down their weapons and relinquish their claims to "all Arab lands" (meaning, from the river to the sea).

Yes you are.