Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[theprestige]

Every person that advocates for ending sex-ed in public schools should have their hard-drives searched ASAP.

Every person that advocates for schoolteachers conspiring with students to keep conversations about sex secret from their parents should have their hard drives checked ASAP.

 

[Emily's Cat]

"Oh come on nobody is saying that someone can just wake up one day and go 'I'm the other sex.' Nobody is saying that. That's a total strawman."

This is a worse problem in places that have no formalized way for trans and gender nonconforming people to formally update their identity papers. In the absence of a formalized, official process, ambiguity flourishes.

Somehow I doubt this kind of thing would happen in Canada if attempting such a ploy required going through the official process of updating your official ID papers.

So what you're saying is that it's more like "people are going to just wake up one day and go "I'm the other sex, let me walk down to the courthouse today and change my official documents"

 

[Emily's Cat]

All of them? Probably not. Trans people are not a monolith. I imagine more than a few would find it an acceptable compromise, but you'd have to ask them rather than pretend there's some singular "trans rights" mouthpiece.

Hmm. And yet all of the trans rights organizations seem to have a monolithic view that says no gatekeeping is acceptable.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why do you assume that? Hell, why do you assume this is some hypothetical.

Processes that are easy enough and "appease me" exist already. Canada has self-ID that requires formal declaration. In California, changing your gender identity is as straightforward as a trip to the DMV.

You seem really committed to the idea that this is some deeply intractable, unsolvable, undefinable problem, to the extent that you totally ignore examples contrary to that.

You're the one carrying around a dogmatic adherence to faith that insists that if it take a person a 30 minute trip to the local courthouse, nobody is EVER going to do that frivolously, and EVERYONE who fills out the paperwork is 100% totally genuinely transgender.

For the rest of us, we understand that when the ONLY requirement is to spend a few minutes filling out some paperwork, that is exactly what "self-id" actually means. It means that literally anybody, for any reason whatsoever, can "legally" change their paperwork, so that they can "legally" engage in anti-social behaviors under cover of law.

Like that case in Washington a couple of years back, where the full grown, bepenised male person just happened to always show up to the community college pool when the middle school female swim team was there, and just coincidentally always ended up in the showers, sauna, and locker rooms when the young females were changing and showering. And when the young females complained that there was a male in the female shower and it made them very uncomfortable and intimidated... they were told that "she" had the law on "her" side, and if the young females didn't like it they could find somewhere else to change than the female locker room.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Only in the sense that you can verify what they declared. But that's just circular. Nothing other than a declaration is required. So if what you're trying to do is figure out whether a declaration of identity is a lie, verifying that they declared that identity can't achieve that.

"I declare that I am a lawyer. See, I've signed this paper saying that I declare myself to be a lawyer. It's official, I'm a lawyer"

"Um, you don't seem to be backed by the Bar Association"

"Irrelevant, I have declared it and filed the paperwork containing my declaration. Now pay me my $2,000 retainer and $350 per hour fee."

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't know how you read that and not come away with the clear impression that the root issue is official IDs that don't match the gender of the person. Removing needless gender identification is one solution, but it's quite obvious that making it easier for gender nonconforming people to update their official documentation is another.

This activist doesn't seem to be advocating for one over the other, but rather a more nuanced combination.

While we're at it, let's issue passports that don't have photos or descriptions. Just whatever name the person hand-writes in that day. That way, everyone can identify as whoever they want to. What could go wrong?

It's like you don't understand the core concept of identity documents in the first place.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Certainly true. Allowing each state to make their own standards for what civil rights trans people are entitled to seems like a massive headache.

What civil rights do transgender identified people currently lack in the US? Please be specific.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Contemptible ideas should be treated with contempt.

ITT we learn that TG thinks the idea of not providing instructions to children for how to engage in anal sex and how to choke your partner is a contemptible idea.

 

[Emily's Cat]

wow, she must have the worst press agent in history then. Never has someone been so misunderstood

It's not misunderstanding, it's willful misrepresentation.

You should be able to recognize that, seeing as it's your preferred approach to argumentation.

 

[Samson]

“Yesterday it became clear that there are a far greater number of cisgender men than we anticipated. Simply put, some of you lied about your gender when you registered.”

Wait, what?

How can anyone claim to know if someone is lying when self-identification is literally the only criterion to be considered non-binary?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

I think you are describing a vertical slippery slope.

 

[Samson]

The transphobia to right wing conspiracy theorist pipeline, sad to see it.

TERF brain rot, many such cases.

Hang on a minute, anal sex is taught in New Zealand schools from age 11 and available earlier.

 

[Matthew Best]

Back here in non-serious Terf Island, police forces have referred 260 “females” to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) to consider a charge of rape over the course of the last five years. By law in the UK, rape can only be committed by a biological male.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/06/rapists-wrongly-labelled-as-women-by-police/

Pretty soon female sexual violence will be just as bad as male sexual violence!

Dr Kate Coleman, director of Keep Prisons Single Sex, said that “the data is rendered useless”, which makes it impossible to “formulate a proper response at any level of criminal justice”.

“Sex registered at birth is the most salient variable for offending and risk,” she said. “To decide to record somebody as something else and then just pretend that is sex is just ludicrous.

 

[lionking]

Dr Kate Coleman, director of Keep Prisons Single Sex, said that “the data is rendered useless”, which makes it impossible to “formulate a proper response at any level of criminal justice”.

“Sex registered at birth is the most salient variable for offending and risk,” she said. “To decide to record somebody as something else and then just pretend that is sex is just ludicrous.

Well what is demonstrable truth to most people in the world will be dismissed as transphobia from TERF island from at least one poster here.....

 

[Samson]

Back here in non-serious Terf Island, police forces have referred 260 “females” to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) to consider a charge of rape over the course of the last five years. By law in the UK, rape can only be committed by a biological male.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/06/rapists-wrongly-labelled-as-women-by-police/

Pretty soon female sexual violence will be just as bad as male sexual violence!

Dr Kate Coleman, director of Keep Prisons Single Sex, said that “the data is rendered useless”, which makes it impossible to “formulate a proper response at any level of criminal justice”.

“Sex registered at birth is the most salient variable for offending and risk,” she said. “To decide to record somebody as something else and then just pretend that is sex is just ludicrous.

Ashley Winter.
Google until your brain falls out.

 

[Samson]

Lisa Littman is part of this debate. Wiki says

Shortly after PLOS One published the corrected study, a critique of the original study's methodology appeared in Archives of Sexual Behavior.[19] The author, Arjee Restar, argued that Littman's study was fatally methodologically flawed, beginning with the choice to sample exclusively from users of three websites "known for telling parents not to believe their child is transgender", with the result that three-quarters of those surveyed had rejected their child's gender identity; 91 percent of respondents were white, 82 percent were women, and 66 percent were between the ages of 46 and 60. She wrote that the study was mostly composed of "white mothers who have strong oppositional beliefs about their children's trans identification" and that there was very little evidence that Littman's survey responses were representative of trans youth and young adults as a whole.[19]

Here we see that it is all white.
Why?
Correlation or causation?
I am sure it is the latter, but would love to see a skeptic show me to be wrong.

 

[Pixel42]

Not at all incredible that a group of social justice inquisitors on the internet deemed JKR to be a despicable heretic and then have propagated a narrative of JKR being a raging transphobe.

I recently made the mistake of contributing to a discussion on another forum where JKR was being blamed for the upsurge in anti-trans rhetoric by far right crackpots after years of relative tolerance. Needless to say my suggestion that the unreasonable demands of TRAs was more likely to be what was driving it was not well received.

I can understand why a small oppressed minority might be reluctant to accept that people who are clearly on their side might be doing their cause more harm than good. But I continue to believe that accommodations which require costly concessions by another, much larger, oppressed group are more likely to be obtained if respectfully negotiated rather than stridently demanded.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I recently made the mistake of contributing to a discussion on another forum where JKR was being blamed for the upsurge in anti-trans rhetoric by far right crackpots after years of relative tolerance. Needless to say my suggestion that the unreasonable demands of TRAs was more likely to be what was driving it was not well received.

I can understand why a small oppressed minority might be reluctant to accept that people who are clearly on their side might be doing their cause more harm than good. But I continue to believe that accommodations which require costly concessions by another, much larger, oppressed group are more likely to be obtained if respectfully negotiated rather than stridently demanded.

It would be silly to attribute such a groundswell of anti-trans sentiment in the UK to any one person. Rowling's liberal-feminist coded bigotry is merely representative of a larger social trend occurring on TERF island, which is undergoing a nasty right wing swing into extreme austerity and bitterness generally. Be it privatizing what remains of the meager social democracy of the UK, champing at the bit at the idea of machine gunning refugees in dinghies crossing the channel, openly embracing a more austere, hopeless economic future, or frothing at the mouth with transphobia, the UK appears to be going down quite the dark path.

Whatever reputational suicide Rowling may be committing by aligning herself with this modern reactionary right wing social cause, Rowling's is only one, admittedly famous, voice among many. It would be incredibly reductionist to suggest her role was so decisive.

 

[Ziggurat]

It would be silly to attribute such a groundswell of anti-trans sentiment in the UK to any one person. Rowling's liberal-feminist coded bigotry is merely representative of a larger social trend occurring on TERF island, which is undergoing a nasty right wing swing into extreme austerity and bitterness generally. Be it privatizing what remains of the meager social democracy of the UK, champing at the bit at the idea of machine gunning refugees in dinghies crossing the channel, openly embracing a more austere, hopeless economic future, or frothing at the mouth with transphobia, the UK appears to be going down quite the dark path.

It's always funny to see how people who place faith in being on 'the right side of history' cope when history fails to cooperate with what's supposed to be inevitable progress.

Bitterness and resentment is a normal response.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's always funny to see how people who place faith in being on 'the right side of history' cope when history fails to cooperate with what's supposed to be inevitable progress.

Bitterness and resentment is a normal response.

We're not even talking about legacy, the consequences are more immediate.

You have living examples like Graham Linehan, who is best known for destroying his entire professional and personal life with anti-trans brain-rot. World's Most Divorced Man has some advice on how to structure society lol

 

[Ziggurat]

We're not even talking about legacy, the consequences are more immediate.

You have living examples like Graham Linehan, who is best known for destroying his entire professional and personal life with anti-trans brain-rot. World's Most Divorced Man has some advice on how to structure society lol

You just spent a post explaining why broader social changes are more important than individual celebrities. And then when challenged, you appeal to the case of an individual celebrity. Who exactly are you trying to convince of what?