Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[d4m10n]

In states with formalized self-id, like California, one could require ID cards to verify gender and opportunistic ploys like this would require more hurdles.

Do you think the trans rights folks would be cool with gatekeeping based on state issued i.d. even if they were easily obtained?



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[TurkeysGhost]

Same way Trans people just magically know that anyone claiming to be the other gender for nefarious purposes doesn't count and isn't really "In the club."

The whole "It's pure self identification" thing is a copout and has never been true.

It's always been "Pure self identification and a magical undefined other variable that we will never clarify."

That's been one of a billion death spirals in this "The Swindon Magic Round About of Death Spirals" that walks like a discussion.

"Oh come on nobody is saying that someone can just wake up one day and go 'I'm the other sex.' Nobody is saying that. That's a total strawman." "Okay so what's the other criteria?"

"LOOK A SQUIRREL!"

This is a worse problem in places that have no formalized way for trans and gender nonconforming people to formally update their identity papers. In the absence of a formalized, official process, ambiguity flourishes.

Somehow I doubt this kind of thing would happen in Canada if attempting such a ploy required going through the official process of updating your official ID papers.

 

[d4m10n]

Is it even possible to lie about ones own gender identity?

Evidently we're in hidden variables territory here. [emoji317]

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[JoeMorgue]

Is it even possible to lie about ones own gender identity?

No. Which makes the whole thing pointless.

I've asked many, many times "Can someone say 'I'm this sex' and be wrong?"

if the answer no then it's nonsense.

Even "My subjective inner identity complicated nuance spectrum of subjective gender soul" has to be falsifiable to mean anything.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Do you think the trans rights folks would be cool with gatekeeping based on state issued i.d. even if they were easily obtained?



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All of them? Probably not. Trans people are not a monolith. I imagine more than a few would find it an acceptable compromise, but you'd have to ask them rather than pretend there's some singular "trans rights" mouthpiece.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This is a worse problem in places that have no formalized way for trans and gender nonconforming people to formally update their identity papers. In the absence of a formalized, official process, ambiguity flourishes.

Somehow I doubt this kind of thing would happen in Canada if attempting such a ploy required going through the official process of updating your official ID papers.

Dude stop. We know where this is going.

You know damn well that any "process" like this would never be easy enough to appease you, to say nothing of actual trans people.

You're proposing a fix that you know you would just turn around and complain about it.

 

[d4m10n]

All of them? Probably not. Trans people are not a monolith. I imagine more than a few would find it an acceptable compromise, but you'd have to ask them rather than pretend there's some singular "trans rights" mouthpiece.

If only there were groups who claim to speak for the community. They could have cool names based on mythical transformations like "Mermaids."

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[TurkeysGhost]

Dude stop. We know where this is going.

You know damn well that any "process" like this would never be easy enough to appease you, to say nothing of actual trans people.

You're proposing a fix that you know you would just turn around and complain about it.

Why do you assume that? Hell, why do you assume this is some hypothetical.

Processes that are easy enough and "appease me" exist already. Canada has self-ID that requires formal declaration. In California, changing your gender identity is as straightforward as a trip to the DMV.

You seem really committed to the idea that this is some deeply intractable, unsolvable, undefinable problem, to the extent that you totally ignore examples contrary to that.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If only there were groups who claim to speak for the community. They could have cool names based on mythical transformations like "Mermaids."

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Anyone can claim to speak for anything, doesn't necessarily make it true.

 

[d4m10n]

Anyone can claim to speak for anything, doesn't necessarily make it true.

Seems to me that we should take the activist groups into account when deciding which solutions to implement in order to keep the activists happy.

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[TurkeysGhost]

Seems to me that we should take the activist groups into account when deciding which solutions to implement in order to keep the activists happy.

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You might. I fail to see how a UK activist group has anything to do with a story taking place in Florida. Considering the wildly different cultural and legal contexts that are absolutely factors in this kind of affair, they are totally irrelevant in this context.

I have no interest in viewing every facet of the trans issue through the distorted lens of TERF island. The british are an unserious people.

 

[d4m10n]

You might. I fail to see how a UK activist group has anything to do with a story taking place in Florida.

Oh noes! I can think of no groups here in the USA so I suppose we'll just try your solution and see how it goes.

 

[Ziggurat]

Seeing as they held their conference in Florida, I suppose verifying this would be pretty much impossible.

In states with formalized self-id, like California, one could require ID cards to verify gender and opportunistic ploys like this would require more hurdles.

Not surprisingly, you actually have this backwards.

In Florida, to legally change your gender on your driver's license, you need a formal statement from a physician who is actually providing transition treatment. That's not self-ID, that is a real hurdle, and there's more than just your own word about your status.

In California, you can change your gender on your driver's license with only a self declaration. That's a very tiny hurdle, and it's only your own word, with no mechanism to challenge it. Doing so is basically free.

I have no idea on the legality of this generally, or how a public conference can discriminate in this way to start with, but this seems largely a problem that results from the ambiguity of having the state adopt of position that denies the existence of trans and non-binary people.

What state? Florida? Nope. Florida doesn't deny the existence of trans people. They just don't use self ID. That the conference organizers went with self ID isn't the fault of Florida.

Real problem in the US as state laws vary wildly, but one can imagine that this would be a non-issue in Canada, for example, as people's declared identity is verifiable.

Only in the sense that you can verify what they declared. But that's just circular. Nothing other than a declaration is required. So if what you're trying to do is figure out whether a declaration of identity is a lie, verifying that they declared that identity can't achieve that.

And here we see the failure of your position exposed most plainly. There are two fundamental facts at play which were always obvious but you have desperately tried to ignore:

1) If you create an incentive to lie about your gender, people will lie about their gender.
2) Under self ID, there is no mechanism to detect or prevent such lies.

The conference organizers created such an incentive to lie, and by their own choice could not detect or prevent such lies. The results were entirely predictable, and entirely their own fault.

 

[Wildy]

The third genders in these societies are just ways to cope with homosexuality. Notice that these third genders are all born male. Never goes the other way.

There are examples of it going the other way. But in general it does mainly seem to be "male taking on women's roles".

There is, to my knowledge, only one example of a culture that allows females to take on a male-like role. And those are required to remain unmarried and to not have children... just so they can inherit property when there are no males to inherit it. But note that because they aren't allowed to have kids, the property will ultimately be inherited by a male along a different family branch.

That sounds like you're referring to the "sworn virgins" in traditional Balkan societies. There are other societies where that appears to be the case, if you look at the list of Two Spirit terms you'll see a bunch that are related to females taking on men's roles.

 

[Ziggurat]

Is it even possible to lie about ones own gender identity?

Yes, but it's impossible to tell if it's a lie. Which also means it's impossible to tell if it's the truth.

Self ID is quite the bundle of internal contradictions.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is a worse problem in places that have no formalized way for trans and gender nonconforming people to formally update their identity papers. In the absence of a formalized, official process, ambiguity flourishes.

What places are you referring to? Not Florida. They have a formal official process to do exactly that. It's just not self ID, and the conference organizers didn't want to use it.

You seem really committed to the idea that this is some deeply intractable, unsolvable, undefinable problem, to the extent that you totally ignore examples contrary to that.

I could say that about you when it comes to alternatives to self ID.

 

[d4m10n]

What places are you referring to? Not Florida. They have a formal official process to do exactly that. It's just not self ID, and the conference organizers didn't want to use it.

Even if the conference had been in California, it would not have been limited to Californians. There would need to be a federal solution if the organizers wanted to lean on identity docs.

 

[d4m10n]

Given that the activist solution is "to remove gender markers from being displayed on IDs whenever possible" it is hard to see a good faith argument that the conference ought to have had the chance to lean on official policy to decide which participants are truly non-binary.

 

[AmyStrange]

Ray Stevens Parodies Men Competing In Women’s Sports With New Song “Since Bubba Changed His Name To Charlene”
Aaron Ryan

FROM: https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/new...p&cvid=a0546b14e6df419b9f259262795442cd&ei=12

Ray Stevens is an icon.

The country singer and comedian, known for his humorous songs like “Mississippi Squirrel Revival” and “The Streak,” actually started out as a studio musician in Nashville and won a Grammy for his gospel song “Everything Is Beautiful.”

Of course it’s his comedic tunes that have gotten Stevens the most attention.

At 84 years old, Ray Stevens is still active in music, performing regular shows at his CabaRay theater in Nashville and still cranking out the new music.

And his latest one tackles a hot topic in America right now.

“Since Bubba Changed His Name To Charlene” is a comedic take on the hot-button issue of biological men competing in women’s sports. The song dives headfirst into the issue with the story of a man named “Bubba” who changes his name to Charlene so that he can join the women’s swim team...

(SNIP)

 

[theprestige]

(They mean sex markers, of course.)

But the idea of removing gender markers from ID is hilarious. Gender is a social construct. The only way it works is because of markers.