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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

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theprestige said:
There's a sex-segregated restroom right there. If all they're trying to do is take a much-needed piss, that's a solved problem.

What's a transwoman (i.e., a male who claims "woman" as their gender identity), trying to do when faced with these sex-segregated spaces?

What is a transwoman trying to do, when faced with sex-segregated prisons?

What is a transwoman trying to do, when faced with sex-segregated sports?

What do you think public policy about sex-segregated spaces should do, in each of those scenarios, when faced with a transwoman?
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Still waiting for answers, TurkeysGhost.
 
theprestige said:
Still waiting for answers, TurkeysGhost.
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You have yet to engage with my point that trans people cannot use these sex segregated spaces without drawing huge amounts of attention to themselves simply by existing while trans.

A bearded trans man using the women's restroom and getting the cops routinely called on them is not a "solved problem", it's you simply refusing to engage with the problem.
 
Ziggurat said:
I don't think anyone denies that. But that's not the question. Do we categorically deny parents authority over their children because a few parents misuse that authority? That's stupid. Especially since no substitute authority has any better track record of acting in the best interest of the child than parents do. And why would you expect them to? Nobody has more skin in the game than parents. There's a bloody good reason the basic family structure has continued through thousands of years of human social evolution. We have yet to improve upon it.

Playing the odds, I'd pick the parents over the school/government any day of the week. It should take specific, demonstrable and severe problems to ever substitute the authority of the latter for the former. The mere fact that a child wants to transition doesn't suffice.
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I'm not talking about custody disputes, which are complicated for exactly the reasons you state.

On the other hand, adults have unilateral authority about who they maintain relationships with, and I am merely pointing out that going down the anti-trans rabbit hole is a great way to make sure your adult trans children never call.

Parents often do horrible things to their children under the misguided belief that it's for their own good. I hope confused parents would look at these stories of anti-trans parents permanently estranging themselves from their children as a cautionary tale, not one to emulate.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
I'm not talking about custody disputes, which are complicated for exactly the reasons you state.

On the other hand, adults have unilateral authority about who they maintain relationships with, and I am merely pointing out that going down the anti-trans rabbit hole is a great way to make sure your adult trans children never call.

Parents often do horrible things to their children under the misguided belief that it's for their own good. I hope confused parents would look at these stories of anti-trans parents permanently estranging themselves from their children as a cautionary tale, not one to emulate.
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If your child falls victim to a harmful cult, you do everything you can to free them. Protecting your children from the evils of the world is the most fundamental charge of a parent.
 
Trausti said:
If your child falls victim to a harmful cult, you do everything you can to free them. Protecting your children from the evils of the world is the most fundamental charge of a parent.
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Is going to a the tabloid press and trash talking your child an effective way to get people out of cults?
 
TomB said:
If it's OK to be trans, then being "outed" should not be a bad thing.
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Is this some kind of typo or specialized context or something? I'm having a hard time understanding how someone could think this way. The reason a trans person might not want to be outed is the same reason a homosexual might not want to be outed, even though it's "OK". Because enough people to be a threat or cause unwelcome distress may disagree, even irrationally or unjustly.
 
This discussion would be very different if it were actually about people who are trying to pass and succeeding, who are worried about being outed if they use the correct sex-specific facilities.

I think the real solution to "outing", long-term is to de-stigmatize genderqueer expressions, and criminalize persecution of people who choose genderqueer expressions.

It should be okay for a dude in a dress to use the men's restroom, regardless of whatever gender he identifies as.

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ETA: It would also be a very different discussion, if it were actually about protecting the fragile mental health of people who will become suicidal if they can't use the sex-segregated bathroom of their choice.
 
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gnome said:
Is this some kind of typo or specialized context or something? I'm having a hard time understanding how someone could think this way. The reason a trans person might not want to be outed is the same reason a homosexual might not want to be outed, even though it's "OK". Because enough people to be a threat or cause unwelcome distress may disagree, even irrationally or unjustly.
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I don't think it's possible to be transgender without being "out".

The whole point of transgenderism is to express a gender construct that is at odds with the gender construct society normally prescribes for your sex. The essence of transwomanhood is saying, "I know you see me as male, but I want you to think of me, treat me as a woman."

Yes, some men can pass as women, with effort, favorable conditions, and a friendly (or at least indifferent) audience. But that's not really who we're trying to solve for, here.

ETA: And it certainly doesn't help that trans rights activists cold suck at explaining what "treated as a woman" is supposed to mean - other than the very concrete, very binary, "treated as a biological female" scenarios.
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
I'm not talking about custody disputes
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Neither am I. Did you forget about schools transitioning children without their parent's consent?

On the other hand, adults have unilateral authority about who they maintain relationships with, and I am merely pointing out that going down the anti-trans rabbit hole is a great way to make sure your adult trans children never call.
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I'm not sure what you think the "anti-trans rabbit hole" is, or who exactly you think is advocating it. But parents who put the brakes on transition do not always regret that. You seem to be ignoring the cases where the child is grateful that the parent did.

Parents often do horrible things to their children under the misguided belief that it's for their own good.
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So do doctors.
 
theprestige said:
Yes, some men can pass as women, with effort, favorable conditions, and a friendly (or at least indifferent) audience. But that's not really who we're trying to solve for, here.
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That people who pass aren't the source of the dispute doesn't mean they won't be collateral damage of an "outing" policy. Not to mention, people that are "out" in one context or group do not necessarily want to be "out" in another.
 
Ziggurat said:
Neither am I. Did you forget about schools transitioning children without their parent's consent?
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I apologize if I'm digging up something that was already gone over, being that the thread is so deep and I discuss the topic elsewhere.

What actions constitute a school "transitioning" a child? That's a rather active verb.
 
Again this is what I mean when "trans" covers far too broad of a topic and we really should be clarifying are we talking about:

Since non-traditional sexed people will die if they don't use the phrase "spectrum" every 3 seconds it's weird that everyone is just "trans" when it describes multiple, different things.

1. A biological X who simply wants to be "thought of" as the other sex but has no intentions of doing any medical transitioning.

2. A biological X who wants to transition.

3. A biological X who is transitioning.

4. A biological X who has transitioned to the other sex as much as modern science will allow.

These are not all the same thing.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again this is what I mean when "trans" covers far too broad of a topic and we really should be clarifying are we talking about:

Since non-traditional sexed people will die if they don't use the phrase "spectrum" every 3 seconds it's weird that everyone is just "trans" when it describes multiple, different things.

1. A biological X who simply wants to be "thought of" as the other sex but has no intentions of doing any medical transitioning.

2. A biological X who wants to transition.

3. A biological X who is transitioning.

4. A biological X who has transitioned to the other sex as much as modern science will allow.

These are not all the same thing.
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And different public policy considerations might have to be taken into account for the above, times the possible arenas (changing rooms, sports, public schools, bathrooms, grants, statistics, prisons, etc.) times adults vs. children.
 
Nonsense' of gender data collected by public bodies set for review (UK)

'The Science Secretary will on Tuesday unveil a review into the “utter nonsense” of public bodies being urged to collect data on self-identified gender rather than biological sex.'

'The review will last six months and be headed up by Prof Alice Sullivan, the head of research at UCL’s Social Research Institute. It will analyse the collection of research and statistics by all public bodies on sex and gender, with specific recommendations to be made at the end.'
 
d4m10n said:
Here's a concept I'd like enlightened liberals to keep in mind: Sorting males like Lia Thomas and Laurel Hubbard into male sports leagues and record books is not driven by bigotry, but by actual, testable, demonstrable differences between the two sexes in terms of athletic performance. Sometimes one's sex really does matter more than one's subjective sense of self. If you cannot wrap your head around this, do not claim to be driven by skepticism and a dedication to following the evidence wherever it leads.
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Spot on.
 
p0lka said:
Hehe yeah. I do stick to what i said though, as i have one kid that transitioned as an adult when they knew what they wanted, and another kid that wanted puberty blockers and was really confused at a younger age. But saying 'no wait till you're older' worked for them, because they ended up growing out of the confusion they had and are content now. I think.
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TurkeysGhost said:
Hard to argue that these parents don't know what choice they're making at this point. They are choosing to be estranged by their trans children by acting like this.
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Or... they're being responsible parents who are invested in their child's long term well being. Crazy idea, I know... but it seems to have worked quite well for p0lka.

Or do you think their younger child just lacks the backbone to ostracize p0lka?
 
d4m10n said:
Wait, what? It is totally possible for hunter gatherer societies to recognize a third gender like fa'afafine.
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Mmm.... Let's add some clarification here.

Some societies, particularly societies with extremely rigid sex-based social roles, recognize a category for people who don't adhere to their rigid roles. Those are almost always categories for male people who don't fit the rigorous confines of a male within that society. And they are almost always relegated to a secondary status with in the social hierarchy... below that of conforming males, and above that of females.

There is, to my knowledge, only one example of a culture that allows females to take on a male-like role. And those are required to remain unmarried and to not have children... just so they can inherit property when there are no males to inherit it. But note that because they aren't allowed to have kids, the property will ultimately be inherited by a male along a different family branch.

And although I'm sure some pakeha or other will be alone shortly to tell me that I'm wrong, and that the perspectives of maori people that maoris are telling me are all lies... a lot of fa'afafine aren't there because they really, really, truly feel like they should have had a female body. There is a not insignificant number who are pressed into that role by their families, because there are no female children. And there are some chores and roles that can only be done by females... so if a family has all male children, well, tough luck. One of them gets to be fa'afafine whether they want to or not.

Now let's circle that back to the actual point. People with the mental disorder of dysphoria who have a particularly severe case do certainly exist in nature, at least among humans. What does not exist in nature is anyone actually being in the wrong body. People with a variety of mental health disorders do exist in nature; none of that means that their brain's misunderstanding of the nature of reality is true.
 
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