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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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quadraginta said:
That's a hoot.

I'd love to read her assuredly erudite explanation of the process of welding steel, and how it doesn't involve the steel melting.
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She'll probably claim that "erudite" is the sort of glue that is used to weld steel.
 
Mojo said:
Were they?




You don't mention the yachts and catamaran in the earlier post, were those instances not in the Baltic?

Incidentally, did you have an albatross tied to your belt on any of these occasions?
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The earlier post about being adrift was only about those two occasions. In your post you tried to imply that the only marine experience I had were those two occasions so I set the record straight.
 
zooterkin said:
More nonsense, already addressed.
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I get that being 'one of the lads' and 'lad's honour' is more important to several on here than objective impartial truth.

When the laddish backslapping and laddish backing each other up is all said and done, the fact remains that the Estonia was fitted with HRU-activated automatic EPIRBs designed to emit a signal when immersed in sufficient water to trigger the breaking of the HRU seal.

It is a shame that intellectual integrity is not considered of importance but having seen the state of UK news media no wonder people are prepared to accept any old disinformation and not feel any discomfort about it despite knowing it is mostly selective rubbish. So no surprise the same goes for here.

(ETA: I realise I will probably be severely punished for stating this.)
 
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quadraginta said:
I was a rodbuster (reinforcing steel ironworker) for close to a decade, and used an oxy-acetylene cutting torch on at least a weekly if not damn near daily basis at work. I'm not sure what "protective surroundings" consist of. I suppose jobsites must conform to the specification.

So do quite a few garages, both commercial and residential, I guess.
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The misunderstanding arose because I seem to have misread the statement of an expert who was investigating an element of the bow visor (cutting off bits of metal for analysis). The expert in question said something about how the heating process was to such a high temperature it could only be done in a laboratory. OK so I misquoted the temperature referred to and now we never hear the end of it.
 
Axxman300 said:
To be clear, the current investigation has ruled out explosion:

https://www.havkom.se/assets/reports/Intermediate-Report-MV-ESTONIA-Jan-2023.pdf



If someone is looking for a crime it is in that last statement about the certificate of seaworthiness. 800+ people died because the Captain thought he could push his luck, and the company was operating a ship in waters it was never designed to serve on.

Why isn't this enough?

If there was a conspiracy it was in the offices of Estline.
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Of course the preliminary report is going to say that. What did you expect it to say?

The Swedish government already knows what caused the accident. The problem is how to spin it to the public so that they will accept it without demur.
 
Vixen said:
The earlier post about being adrift was only about those two occasions. In your post you tried to imply that the only marine experience I had were those two occasions so I set the record straight.
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Why did you claim that those two occasions were "quite apart from" speedboats? Had you forgotten?
 
Vixen said:
I get that being 'one of the lads' and 'lad's honour' is more important to several on here than objective impartial truth.

When the laddish backslapping and laddish backing each other up is all said and done, the fact remains that the Estonia was fitted with HRU-activated automatic EPIRBs designed to emit a signal when immersed in sufficient water to trigger the breaking of the HRU seal.

It is a shame that intellectual integrity is not considered of importance but having seen the state of UK news media no wonder people are prepared to accept any old disinformation and not feel any discomfort about it despite knowing it is mostly selective rubbish. So no surprise the same goes for here.

(ETA: I realise I will probably be severely punished for stating this.)
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I know I said I wasn't responding to EPIRB stuff anymore, but this is so obviously false it has to be a deliberate lie.

Apart from they weren't.
They were manual.
They were recovered and found to be turned off.
When turned on they worked as they should.
They had full batteries and transmitted a signal at full strength

If they were automatic why didn't they transmit when immersed?
Why did they have to be turned on?
Why were they manual activation models?
 
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Mojo said:
Why did you claim that those two occasions were "quite apart from" speedboats? Had you forgotten?
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What exactly are you trying to insinuate now? We have a summer island in the archipelago. We have reached it by various means over the years. There have been many occasions when boats of all different shapes and sizes have been in the picture. There were two occasions I was adrift, or seemed to be, as obviously, I am here today, once in a rowing boat when as a small child (the oarsman who was taking us was completely drunk, my mother realised too late) and the other was speedboating with friends when it dawned on me my good friend had lost his bearings and had no idea where we were, nothing but empty sea on all sides. That was my fear but we made it back safely eventually.

Is that adequate for you?
 
Vixen said:
The misunderstanding arose because I seem to have misread the statement of an expert who was investigating an element of the bow visor (cutting off bits of metal for analysis). The expert in question said something about how the heating process was to such a high temperature it could only be done in a laboratory. OK so I misquoted the temperature referred to and now we never hear the end of it.
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You didn't understand it or the 'expert' is ****
 
Vixen said:
The misunderstanding arose because I seem to have misread the statement of an expert who was investigating an element of the bow visor (cutting off bits of metal for analysis). The expert in question said something about how the heating process was to such a high temperature it could only be done in a laboratory. OK so I misquoted the temperature referred to and now we never hear the end of it.
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Yet more shameless dishonesty.
 
Vixen said:
What exactly are you trying to insinuate now? We have a summer island in the archipelago. We have reached it by various means over the years. There have been many occasions when boats of all different shapes and sizes have been in the picture. There were two occasions I was adrift, or seemed to be, as obviously, I am here today, once in a rowing boat when as a small child (the oarsman who was taking us was completely drunk, my mother realised too late) and the other was speedboating with friends when it dawned on me my good friend had lost his bearings and had no idea where we were, nothing but empty sea on all sides. That was my fear but we made it back safely eventually.

Is that adequate for you?
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Well that certainly qualifies you to speak on all aspects of the Estonia sinking.
 
Oh hey Vixen, going to ignore where I proved that you were lying again then?

That's twice recently I've pointed out your lies and you've just ignored me. I can't imagine why.
 
Andy_Ross said:
I know I said I wasn't responding to EPIRB stuff anymore, but this is so obviously false it has to be a deliberate lie.

Apart from they weren't.
They were manual.
They were recovered and found to be turned off.
When turned on they worked as they should.
They had full batteries and transmitted a signal at full strength

If they were automatic why didn't they transmit when immersed?
Why did they have to be turned on?
Why were they manual activation models?
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Because the Estonia was sabotaged. The two EPIRB's which had been inspected the week before and in operating order (tuned and set in their cages) had been removed. The evidence for this is that they turn up together, washed up on the shore together with a pile of life vests and other life-saving equipment. Yes, shipwrecked stuff floats but how likely is it that all of this stuff is all found together all in the same place. They would have all have had to drift together in one big group 200 kms to this one little shipping village in Estonia. IMV it seems very likely to me, all off this was either dumped before the voyage or someone gathered all of this up with malevolent intent.

https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003371303.html
Objects drifting to the shores of Estonia are being collected in Haapsalu. The rescue equipment brought by the wind is being scrutinized. Life rafts and life jackets and lifebuoys brought to shore by the sea are being recovered. The Accident Investigation Board has ordered everything to be kept in stock for investigations. Estline bought Estonia with its equipment, and so only one of the rescue vehicles brought to the West Estonian city of Haapsalu has the name of the ship. The lifeline reads Estonia. The vests have the name of either Viking Sally or Wasa King. <snip>

The fishing port of Dirham in the north-western corner of Estonia, on the island of Osmussaari, plays a key role in the surveillance of Estonian coasts. Surveillance is carried out with three guard cutters and on foot. A rented helicopter has also been used from time to time. Income from the sea has decreased. The warehouse of the border guard in Haapsalu has e.g. 13 life rafts, hundreds of life jackets and other items such as shoes, sweaters and oars for lifeboats. No drowning has been found on this beach.
<snip>" PENTTI KOSKINEN
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https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003371303.html

So a whole load of lifesaving equipment, including the two switched-off auto EPIRB's all washed up together but yet no bodies. So much of it, they had to store it in a warehouse.
 
Vixen said:
The misunderstanding arose because I seem to have misread the statement of an expert who was investigating an element of the bow visor (cutting off bits of metal for analysis). The expert in question said something about how the heating process was to such a high temperature it could only be done in a laboratory. OK so I misquoted the temperature referred to and now we never hear the end of it.
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You just don't have in you to admit a mistake, any mistake, do you. Why not avoid the weasel words and say "I was mistaken"?
 
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