• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
SpitfireIX said:
Secondary school science teacher here, and also a former accountant. You are not a scientist. The fact that you might practice a discipline with the word "science" in its name doesn't make you a scientist, as the word is commonly understood by the overwhelming majority of native English speakers.
Click to expand...

Claim you.
 
Vixen said:
It was not 'extremely bad weather' it was normal bad weather for that time of the year. In addition, ocean swells cannot reach the Baltic Sea.

Another false premise leading to erroneous conclusions.
Click to expand...


Ah so it was just "normal bad weather", huh? I see.

And congratulations are richly deserved for entirely failing to address the substantive point of my post. You're developing a genuine expertise for this! Brava!!

(Oh, and "ocean swells" is a generic term which applies to any large body of water where climatic conditions can cause travelling peaks and troughs in the water surface level. The North Sea can have ocean swells. The Black Sea can have ocean swells. Lake Michigan can have ocean swells. The Baltic Sea can have ocean swells. Hope that helps.)
 
Vixen said:
That is the claim of the German Group of Experts.
Click to expand...

No.

I have just wasted a portion of my life reading Braidwood's report for the 'German Group of Experts', and the claim that temperatures of 700°c are only possible in a laboratory appears exactly 0 times.

You alone, Vixen, made that erroneous claim, and when it's falsity was pointed out you tried to attribute it to others.
 
Vixen said:
Actually, he probably did mean 700°C. Just because a mig welder gets to 6,000°C, it doesn't mean the metal it is cutting does.. The melting point of steel is about 1,500°C and safe to say you'd have to hold your flame there a long time before that happens. What Braidwood's experts were pointing out was that the metal itself had to reach a temperature of 700°C before it deformed to that level. Not the flipping flame, which of course is hot.
Click to expand...


Please stop.
 
junkshop said:
Citation duly provided by JayUtah:




Look again, Vixen.
Click to expand...

Thank you for confirming I was quoting Brian Braidwood and the German Group of Experts.

As I said, if there were signs of detonation, it is just as likely caused by the Swedish Navy divers (cf Rockwater video showing what appears to be an explosive device on the bow bulkhead in one shot then 'mysteriously' vanishing in the next).
 
Vixen said:
... How anyone can interpret this reckless act as benign or of no great consequence is astonishing.
Click to expand...

Show us who called it benign or of no great consequence so we can all be astonished too.

Have you been panic-buying straw? I heard there might be a shortage due to overuse.
 
Vixen said:
Stop being a clever dick. Deliberately changing key words to change the meaning of what was said isn't for me to bother correcting.
Click to expand...


OK, here are the posts again. The second one quotes and replies to the first one, the third one quotes and responds to the second. Nothing has been changed:
Vixen said:
Think about it. Person A is carrying stolen military equipment of a foreign state on his passenger coach. The coach is sabotaged after several warnings by that foreign power to cease and desist. People get hurt.

Question: is Person A vicariously liable for putting his passengers' safety at risk?

If your loved one was one of the passengers would you consider suing Person A or is the fault 100% the foreign power?
Click to expand...

Captain_Swoop said:
Why not just grab the person doing the carrying?
Click to expand...

Vixen said:
What if Person A happens to be your own government?
Click to expand...


That clearly implies action taken by agents of the government doing the smuggling, and that this was the reason for sinking the ship rather than grabbing the person doing the carrying.

You were previously claiming that the Russians sank the Estonia to “send a message” to the people doing the smuggling. Why would they (or any other government) need to sink a ship to send a message to themselves? If it was the Russian government that did all this, why would the Swedish government want to cover it up?
 
Vixen said:
Thank you for confirming I was quoting Brian Braidwood and the German Group of Experts.)
Click to expand...


He wasn’t confirming that; he was confirming that you had used a false equivalence between high temperatures and detonations.

ETA: in case you didn’t know, junkshop’s original post can easily be found by clicking on the little arrow icon in the quotation.
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
Look. Water boils at 100°C. If you have a gas stove, then the flame you are using is anything up to 600°C in intensity. Yet it takes at least 4 - 6 minutes to boil 1 pint of water.



How long do you have to point your arc welding cutter at a piece of thick reinforced steel to get it to melt? It certainly doesn't happen instantly.
Click to expand...
Have you ever seen a machine performing spot welding? Have you thought about how much time each weld takes? And do you recognise that the purpose is to locally melt metal to join parts together and not to reduce the whole workpiece to a molten puddle on the floor?

Please can you tell us what "reinforced steel" is reinforced with? Does it perhaps have rods of concrete running through it?
 
Vixen said:
Thank you for confirming I was quoting Brian Braidwood and the German Group of Experts.
Click to expand...

Vixen said:
'very high heat' (=aka a detonation).
Click to expand...

Do you see the bit I've highlighted above, "(=aka a detonation)"? this is the false equivalence you are being pulled up on. It is not part of any quotation from Braidwood or the GGE. It is your own addition.

Adding your own ideas or assumptions after a quotation doesn't magically make them part of the original.
 
Vixen said:
Look. Water boils at 100°C. If you have a gas stove, then the flame you are using is anything up to 600°C in intensity. Yet it takes at least 4 - 6 minutes to boil 1 pint of water.

How long do you have to point your arc welding cutter at a piece of thick reinforced steel to get it to melt? It certainly doesn't happen instantly.
Click to expand...

A fraction of a second.

How arc welding works. - note that when the arc is struck the melting is almost instant.



Same for gas cutting and welding

 
Last edited:
Update: "I was wrong about the bedrock" - Linus Andersson

Latest news is expert underwater photographer, Linus Andersson, who was on both Henrik Evertsson's and Margus Kurm's most recent expedtions to the wreck site, has announced he was wrong about there not being bedrock in the region of the damaged hull - he had expressed the opinion it was soft clay in the past - but actually there is an outcrop of hard rock.


What he says now:

Linus Andersson from Gothenburg is an expert in examining wrecks with photogrammetry, a method that produces extremely high-resolution images. He also participated in the expedition for the documentary series. Now Linus Andersson has returned home after the new expedition, financed by relatives of the victims of the disaster and an Estonian media group.

Linus Andersson could see that the holes discovered on the outside are part of a cohesive damage area in the hull and that this area agrees with the bedrock - but Linus Andersson is careful to draw some conclusions. When thousands of tons of ship's hull hit the rock, this may have punctured and pushed in that part of the hull. And as the ship continued to move, it may have been pulled loose from the rock, which could explain the blown-out plates in the hole.
Click to expand...
Fokus Group press release

What he said back in 22 December 2020:


The bottom where Estonia is located consists of 5–30 meters of soft clay, according to documents requested by the Swedish Accident Investigation Board. On the raw material from the films to the documentary "Estonia - the find that changes everything", it appears to be rock formations around the ship. But wreck expert Linus Andersson, who was present when the documentary was filmed, is convinced that it is in fact Baltic Sea clay.

The Accident Investigation Board Norway has received material that supports that view. A report from 1996 states that the bottom where Estonia is located consists of soft clay - between 5 and 30 meters thick. The clay is thickest on the south side where the ship is located and thinnest on the north. According to the report, there is harder moraine under the clay. About 100 meters from the north side of the ship there is a harder bedrock under the mud. The report was made by Delft Geotechics and commissioned by the Swedish Maritime Administration. It reviews the conclusions of several bottom surveys conducted during the years 1994-1996.

The investigations include a large number of boreholes in the area as well as other analyzes. Martin Schreuder, senior lecturer at Chalmers University and expert on ship stability, says that it is not reasonable and completely unlikely that the hole shown in the documentary "Estonia - the find that changes everything" could have occurred if the bottom consisted of 5-30 meters soft. Linus Andersson has examined several other wrecks near the place where Estonia is located. Even there, the bottom consists of clay, he says. My opinion is that there is no rock formation or rock where Estonia is located.
Click to expand...
Fokus group

The wreck lies 120° face down on a 30°gradient of hard rock on the north side and soft clay - of a yoghurt-type constituency several metres deep - on the south. The bow lies almost eastwards - in a southeasterly direction, hence, the starboard is towards the north.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom