Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Mojo]

How dare you and Andy disagree with Vixen! I mean it's not like you've worked in marine engineering and Andy is a sailor with his own boat, and Vixen has thought really hard about this and it doesn't make sense to her. Check mate, kemo sabe?

Also, Vixen has been adrift in the Baltic out of sight of land twice, once in a rowing boat. Who else here can claim that sort of expertise?

 

[GlennB]

Also, Vixen has been adrift in the Baltic out of sight of land twice, once in a rowing boat. Who else here can claim that sort of expertise?

I missed that. Did she have an EPIRB?

 

[junkshop]

Also, Vixen has been adrift in the Baltic out of sight of land twice, once in a rowing boat. Who else here can claim that sort of expertise?

<fx: VIXEN (the noble, selfless hero of our story) adopts a smug smirk of self righteous moral superiority, lit only by the flames of a thousand reheated and rehashed ******* theories as they collide with one another in a perfect storm of contradiction and illogic, like zeppelins of ******** until they are extinguished by the cold waters of reality, leaving her alone in the dark, silent oblivion of ignorance>

One can dream.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Unlikely, she's not in her listening pose.

 

[junkshop]

Bugger.

 

[Mojo]

Unlikely, she's not in her listening pose.

I didn't think I could hear anything going "LALALALA..."

 

[Vixen]

Sorry not to be a sweary laddish lad but in the interests of objective facts, the EPIRB's on Estonia do appear to have been the auto-type. These are activated when submerged in water by at least 4m, often before.

In his post in Nov 2021 Captain_Swoop claimed that Kannad did not make automatic Cospas-Sarsat certified EPIRBS until 1997. I am afraid this appears to be incorrect.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13654136#post13654136
Posted by: Captain_Swoop
On: 12th November 2021 11:42 PM

That list took a lot of compiling!!
I have searched through a lot of PDF files from retailers, service agents and certifying authorities to compile it.

As far as I can discover the first auto model was the Kannad 406 ATP
This got Cospas-Sarsat type approval on 05 November 1997.
It was therefore impossible for the Eastonia to be equipped with an automatic buoy if it was a Kannad unit.

He claims that the SOLAS regulations for Cospas-Sarsat certified EPIRBS did not come into force until as a result of the Estonia accident. But in fact it came into force after the Herald of Free Enterprise inquiry, as follows:

CHAPTER III Reg 6 Section 2.3

NOTING that the Conference of Contracting Governments to the
International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974 (SOLAS),
on the global maritime distress and safety system (GMDSS Conference, 1988)
adopted regulation IV/7.1.6 of the 1988 SOLAS amendments, applicable not
later than 1 August 1993, requiring the carriage of a float-free satellite
EPIRB on every ship as part of the global maritime distress and safety system,
https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresourc...MOResolutions/AssemblyDocuments/A.696(17).pdf

<snip>
RECOMMENDS Governments: (a) to ensure, as part of national type approval procedures, that any new type of 406 MHz satellite EPIRB to be deployed on board ships' h tested to confirm that it is in accordance with the IMO performance standards for 406 MHz EPIRBs (resolution A.695(17)); confirmation that the satellite EPIRB meets part B of that performance standard can be achieved by either: (i) performing, or having performed, under national procedures, all appropriate tests; or (ii) accepting type approval test results obtained through the COSPAS-SARSAT type approval procedure (C/S T.007) and confirmed by the delivery o{ a COSPAS-SARSAT Type Approval Certificate; and (b) to encourage national type approval authorities to develop test procedures compatible, to the extent possible, with C/S T.007, if necessary in consultation with the COSPAS-SARSAT Secretariat.

There is ample official evidence that Estonia had automatically activated beacons which were primed to activate when submerged in water (of course, they can also be activated manually if desired).

Another oddity related to the alarm also occurred in connection with the accident. The ship had an alarm and position buoy for the sarsat-cospas system, which automatically transmits the alarm via satellite while sending the coordinates of its own position.

Kalle Pedak , the director general of the Estonian Maritime Administration , thinks that the buoy was not released into the water, but that it must have gone to the bottom with the ship.

29.9.1994 2:00
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370653.html

Also:

Lieutenant Captain Mikko Montonen of Turku Maritime Rescue Centre is more concerned about where the ship's epirb buoys disappeared. "The buoys had been serviced a couple of months ago. There were two of them and they should have been placed in the superstructures of the ship so that at least one of them would float, no matter which ship crashed on either side,"

25.1.1995 https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003373270.html

and

TALLINN - Satellite passenger buoys (EPIRBs) on the Estonian passenger ferry have been found, the Estonian Ministry of Transport announced on Monday. Experts are now investigating why the buoys were not operating at the time of the accident. The radio transmitters in the buoys should have automatically reported the exact position of the vessel via satellites after being submerged. 13.12.1994

Thus it becomes clear that the Swedish and Finnish passenger ferries were using automatically activated EPIRB's long before 1997. This can be readily ascertained in that they are primed to activate when submerged in water, or at least one of them is.

 

[Vixen]

Also, Vixen has been adrift in the Baltic out of sight of land twice, once in a rowing boat. Who else here can claim that sort of expertise?

Those were quite apart from the yachts, catamaran and speedboats.

 

[Axxman300]

To be clear, the current investigation has ruled out explosion:

https://www.havkom.se/assets/reports/Intermediate-Report-MV-ESTONIA-Jan-2023.pdf

The course of this Preliminary Assessment has allowed the reaching of the following preliminary conclusions:

• The wreck of MV ESTONIA is in a poor condition with severe structural damage.

• The location of the outcropping bedrock under the hull matches the location
of the deformation on the hull.

• Based on the evidence gathered so far, there is no indication of a collision
with a vessel or a floating object.

• Based on the evidence gathered so far, there is no indication of an explosion in the bow area.

• The seaworthiness of MV ESTONIA was re-assessed by SHK and OJK, based
on the JAIC report, concluding that MV ESTONIA was not seaworthy.

– An inspection of the bow parts was not performed. The related certificate
should not have been issued unless such an inspection had been carried
out, which means that MV ESTONIA was not seaworthy. If such an
inspection, following regulations, had been carried out, the flaws of the
visor construction could have been discovered, and the accident would
probably not have occurred.

– The location of the bow ramp as the upper extension of the collision
bulkhead was based on a practical decision for an exemption from the
regulations. Such an exemption entails a condition, which must be recorded in certificates but was not. Therefore, MV ESTONIA was not
seaworthy and the certificate was incorrect. If the condition had been
noted in the relevant certificate, the vessel would not have been trading
the Tallinn–Stockholm route.

If someone is looking for a crime it is in that last statement about the certificate of seaworthiness. 800+ people died because the Captain thought he could push his luck, and the company was operating a ship in waters it was never designed to serve on.

Why isn't this enough?

If there was a conspiracy it was in the offices of Estline.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ok, I'm doing something ridiculous now. I'm sending KANNAD and email.



That's the email I'm sending to the support email listed on the manuals of their products.

What I found is, there have been several individual models with the same designation over the decades.
It's not so straightforward

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sorry not to be a sweary laddish lad but in the interests of objective facts, the EPIRB's on Estonia do appear to have been the auto-type. These are activated when submerged in water by at least 4m, often before.

In his post in Nov 2021 Captain_Swoop claimed that Kannad did not make automatic Cospas-Sarsat certified EPIRBS until 1997. I am afraid this appears to be incorrect.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13654136#post13654136
Posted by: Captain_Swoop
On: 12th November 2021 11:42 PM



He claims that the SOLAS regulations for Cospas-Sarsat certified EPIRBS did not come into force until as a result of the Estonia accident. But in fact it came into force after the Herald of Free Enterprise inquiry, as follows:




There is ample official evidence that Estonia had automatically activated beacons which were primed to activate when submerged in water (of course, they can also be activated manually if desired).


29.9.1994 2:00
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370653.html

Also:

25.1.1995 https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003373270.html

and



Thus it becomes clear that the Swedish and Finnish passenger ferries were using automatically activated EPIRB's long before 1997. This can be readily ascertained in that they are primed to activate when submerged in water, or at least one of them is.

Free floating is not automatic activation.

How many times do you need to be told.

Mandatory automatic activation was not legislated until after Estonia.
I gave the exact dates of the change and the wording of the legislation with links to the IMO sight.

Both beacons were recovered. They were manual and not activated.


I've had enough of your obvious and deliberate lies

Why do you think you are accomplishing anything other than making yourself look like a ******* lunatic?

I've had it until something new is posted by you.

Good luck folks.


****

 

[JayUtah]

Why do you think you are accomplishing anything other than making yourself look like a ******* lunatic?

She makes the grown-ups do her bidding. "Tell me where I said that!" "Do your homework!" "It is thus!" (rebuttals posted) "It is thus!" (additional rebuttals posted along with requests to reconcile) <fx pig-headed> "It is thus!" It's no trouble to play the lunatic if you like watching people scurry about trying to take you seriously.

No one is this naturally dumb.
No one is this innocently deluded.
No one is this naively dishonest.

 

[junkshop]

<VIXEN adopts a listening pose. Alas, it is but a pose...>

 

[Steve]

She makes the grown-ups do her bidding. "Tell me where I said that!" "Do your homework!" "It is thus!" (rebuttals posted) "It is thus!" (additional rebuttals posted along with requests to reconcile) <fx pig-headed> "It is thus!" It's no trouble to play the lunatic if you like watching people scurry about trying to take you seriously.

No one is this naturally dumb.
No one is this innocently deluded.
No one is this naively dishonest.

I would like to think this is all an act and that Vixen is somewhat less stupid than she makes herself appear. But I am just not sure.

 

[Mojo]

Also, Vixen has been adrift in the Baltic out of sight of land twice, once in a rowing boat. Who else here can claim that sort of expertise?

Those were quite apart from the yachts, catamaran and speedboats.

Were they?

I have been in the North Sea in ferocious weather and have also been adrift in the Baltic, once in a rowing boat and another occasion in a speedboat, with no sign of any land in sight.

You don't mention the yachts and catamaran in the earlier post, were those instances not in the Baltic?

Incidentally, did you have an albatross tied to your belt on any of these occasions?

 

[zooterkin]

Sorry not to be a sweary laddish lad but in the interests of objective facts, the EPIRB's on Estonia do appear to have been the auto-type. These are activated when submerged in water by at least 4m, often before.

In his post in Nov 2021 Captain_Swoop claimed that Kannad did not make automatic Cospas-Sarsat certified EPIRBS until 1997. I am afraid this appears to be incorrect.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13654136#post13654136
Posted by: Captain_Swoop
On: 12th November 2021 11:42 PM



He claims that the SOLAS regulations for Cospas-Sarsat certified EPIRBS did not come into force until as a result of the Estonia accident. But in fact it came into force after the Herald of Free Enterprise inquiry, as follows:




There is ample official evidence that Estonia had automatically activated beacons which were primed to activate when submerged in water (of course, they can also be activated manually if desired).


29.9.1994 2:00
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370653.html

Also:

25.1.1995 https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003373270.html

and



Thus it becomes clear that the Swedish and Finnish passenger ferries were using automatically activated EPIRB's long before 1997. This can be readily ascertained in that they are primed to activate when submerged in water, or at least one of them is.

More nonsense, already addressed.

 

[quadraginta]

1. OK, so most people don't use and oxy-acetyline flamer in their living room. I was wrong to assume you would be in protective surroundings.
...

This is such pile of bollocks that it's actually offensive.

I pointed out, way back then, that a measly candle flame (let alone gas cooker flame, butane cigarette lighter flame etc etc) easily exceeded the temperature that your source claimed required laboratory conditions. Now you're talking about oxy-acetylene and 'protective surroundings' ?? What the actual **** are you rambling on about?

I was a rodbuster (reinforcing steel ironworker) for close to a decade, and used an oxy-acetylene cutting torch on at least a weekly if not damn near daily basis at work. I'm not sure what "protective surroundings" consist of. I suppose jobsites must conform to the specification.

So do quite a few garages, both commercial and residential, I guess.

 

[Mojo]

I'd forgotten about this one.

 

[quadraginta]

I'd forgotten about this one.

That's a hoot.

I'd love to read her assuredly erudite explanation of the process of welding steel, and how it doesn't involve the steel melting.

 

[GlennB]

I'd forgotten about this one.

Classic