Drag Shows!!

[acbytesla]

Yeah, I choose not to go. I did use to go to burlesque shows with often nude performances, but I would never expose a child to that. Kids are confused enough as it is.

Don't take your kids then either. And if your kids are confused, talk to them. The solution is easy and doesn’t require infringing on other people's freedom. I don’t think we can or should hide reality from our children.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If your kid can understand hiding under their desk from active shooter, they can understand a dude in a sequin gown.

The "But it will confuse the kids!" answer is, was, and always be a copout lie.

 

[Upchurch]

Interesting piece about the upsurge in anti-LGBT bigotry and hate in the USA, especially towards transfolk.

The first sphere fueling this moral panic is ideological. A large section of the American right, in particular white Christian nationalists, have an extremely rigid understanding of not just what makes somebody a man or woman, but what men and women are for.

[snip]

Additionally, the conservative movement realized they were headed toward a supreme court challenge that would overturn Roe v Wade, which they knew would be disastrously unpopular. They needed to give their elected allies something to talk about that was not abortion, to distract from this grave intrusion into people’s private lives. Now the same politicians getting pummeled over the disastrous harms from the Dobbs decision are running to every microphone to yell about trans athletes, because they believe if they can make you so afraid of trans people’s freedoms, then you won’t mind sacrificing your own.

a-yup. That's what I've been sayin', except I credited it more to the Culture Warriors than the Christian Nationalists. I'm sure there is plenty of overlap between the two groups and certainly a lot of influence from the latter to the former.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Trying to connect drag entertainment to questions of trans identity is an obtuse point of view, in my opinion reflecting an unwillingness to try to comprehend details of the issue. I see it as waving a hand at anything gender-related that the person finds distasteful or worrisome and saying "ick". Which is a valid opinion I suppose but not very useful for describing rational policy.

This would be a reasonable position. Unfortunately, drag has been subsumed under transgender identity, and the intent of drag-for/at-kids events has explicitly been framed as endeavoring to advance tolerance of transgender people.

https://www.dragstoryhour.org/about

We envision a world where kids can learn from LGBTQ+ stories and experiences to love themselves, celebrate the fabulous diversity in their communities, and stand up for what they believe in and each other.

The intent of DQSH to advocate for gender fluidity and transgender acceptance is well documented.

Additionally, you can see the conflation in this thread, and others with related themes. No matter what the objection to Drag for Kids, the objector is cast as being "anti trans".

My objections to drag for children has nothing at all to do with transgender anything. I have two objections:
Many DQSH events and similar Drag events aimed at children include clothing, dancing, and comportment that I consider to be inappropriately risqué for young children; included in that are the few cases where the drag performer has had a prior record for child sex offenses and basic safeguarding was not done.
To me, a large amount of drag comes across as a parody and a mockery of females, very much akin to the parody and mockery of black people contained in minstrel shows - which were also wildly popular in their day; to me drag is effectively "womanface" in the same way that minstrel shows are "blackface".

And despite me being pretty clear that not all cross-dressing is drag, and that drag is an entirely separate topic from gender identity... the arguments I've been met with have repeatedly devolved to accusations of bigotry and transphobia.

In short... perhaps you should suggest that the pro-drag side of this discussion stop connecting drag shows to transgender identity.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Pageantry generally is not my cup of tea, and that includes drag, but that's neither here nor there when you consider whether or not you should support them when being targeted by blood-thirsty bigots and reactionaries.

When people oppose minstrel shows on the basis of it being offensive caricatures in blackface... they are good people doing noble work for good reasons.

When people oppose drag shows on the basis of it being offensive caricatures in womanface... they are blood-thirsty bigots and reactionaries.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Have you considered asking some actual women?

Actual female here. I think drag is an offensive caricature of females.

Lots of females share my view. Have you considered listening to those of us who hold this view? Or do you only accept the views of females that agree with you on this issue?

 

[Emily's Cat]

While I don't find drag shows enjoyable...having been to one and found one to be enough...our personal tastes aren't the issue. I agree with TurkeysGhost that it's a question of whether we have the right to attend them, to decide, as parents, what our children see , and whether we have the right to perform or dress in drag regardless of anyone else's personal opinion on drag. Attending a Trump rally dressed like Uncle Sam on LSD and waving a flag of Trump depicted as a superhero and taking your kid along personally offends me but I give no argument to their right to do it.

I generally agree. As much as I find drag to be distasteful, I do not think it is in the purview of the government to prevent adults from attending them. I think there is some basis in the government requiring a minimum age - but I think that should be based solely on the content and nature of the show as well as the prevalence of alcohol, same as it would be for any burlesque show or even comedy clubs. I am very much opposed to the laws which have outlawed them completely, or placed absurd restrictions on drag.

That said, I do think that it's reasonable to place considerable restrictions on the content, comportment, and backgrounds of performers who are specifically engaging in drag for children. And I also think it's reasonable to exclude drag performances from schools where parents don't really have a way to opt out of having their kids attend.

With regard to limits on the content, comportment, and background... I've been told that it's completely unreasonable for me to expect a drag performer to comply with a G-Rating standard when performing for kids. Why that's completely unreasonable, I still don't understand.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I asked you to share what evidence allowed you to come to your conclusion.

Why would you require a person to provide "evidence" to support their opinion?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'd also want to know why it only now that it is a problem since it's been going on for thousands of years.

What has changed recently? What was NOT happening for thousands of years, but is happening recently?

Also - I call ******** on "thousands of years". For thousands of years, females were PROHIBITED from acting, and only males were allowed. As a result of females being intentionally excluded, all female roles had to be performed by males. I don't think it's reasonable to consider that "drag".

Not all cases of males in female clothing are drag. You know that, so stop pretending like it's all the same thing. Kabuki isn't drag. Cross-dressing isn't drag. Drag is a particular type of performance that includes cross-dressing.

Some A are B, but not all B are A. Basic stuff here.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Hypothetically something could have been a problem for thousands of years and only recognized as one now.

This isn't, but something else could be!

Minstrel shows were a problem, but weren't recognized as one right away.

On the other hand, ridicule and mockery of females through the parody of drag is totally not a problem at all, nope!

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not looking for a peer-reviewed double-blind placebo-controlled study. I'm just looking for any justification that children would be "mortally confused" by a dude in a frock.

"Daddy, why is that man wearing a dress?"
"Because it's a show and that's his costume."
"Can I have some chocolate?"

"Daddy, why is that white person wearing brown make-up?"
"Because it's a show and that's their costume."
"Can I have some cake?"

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's exactly the same as when atheists talk about eating babies. It's taking a claim of the opposition and making a joke out of it.

Okay... sure...

The difference being that atheism is not being actively taught and advocated for in elementary school. Children aren't being taught tolerance and acceptance of atheism, and that they should embrace and celebrate religious (and anti-religious) diversity.

If atheists joked about eating babies... and then made a habit of showing up at 1-year birthday parties with a knife & fork and a bib... there might be a bit of a different reaction don't you think?

 

[dirtywick]

When people oppose minstrel shows on the basis of it being offensive caricatures in blackface... they are good people doing noble work for good reasons.

When people oppose drag shows on the basis of it being offensive caricatures in womanface... they are blood-thirsty bigots and reactionaries.

are you saying that we are not talking enough about how it's bigots and reactionaries that oppose minstrel shows? or that there's not really an element of bigotry in drag opposition?

because they've been pretty vocal about how they feel about that stuff

 

[acbytesla]

Actual female here. I think drag is an offensive caricature of females.

Lots of females share my view. Have you considered listening to those of us who hold this view? Or do you only accept the views of females that agree with you on this issue?

I hear your point. I'm sorry you feel that way. I think it's more often gay men making fun of themselves and their community than it has to do with women at all. But then again I've attended Drag Shows. Along with lots of women.

 

[bruto]

That seems like it (might) have been a case of someone mistaking those little absorbing pellets that some emergency/camping toilets use for "cat litter."

Or quite possibly actual cat litter, which is cheap, easily stored and readily available, and would do for a dire emergency.

I've used cat litter to absorb oil on the garage floor too, but not once did I have to worry that someone would accuse my car of species dysphoria.

 

[arthwollipot]

The difference being that atheism is not being actively taught and advocated for in elementary school. Children aren't being taught tolerance and acceptance of atheism, and that they should embrace and celebrate religious (and anti-religious) diversity.

They should be.

 

[arthwollipot]

If atheists joked about eating babies... and then made a habit of showing up at 1-year birthday parties with a knife & fork and a bib... there might be a bit of a different reaction don't you think?

Are drag queens making a habit of showing up at 1-year birthday parties in drag? No? Then I think your argument is specious.

 

[arthwollipot]

This would be a reasonable position. Unfortunately, drag has been subsumed under transgender identity, and the intent of drag-for/at-kids events has explicitly been framed as endeavoring to advance tolerance of transgender people.

Only inasmuch as what you describe as "transgender identity" is actually the Big Tent of LGBTQIA+ that takes care of a variety of historically persecuted minorities.

 

[tyr_13]

Minstrel shows were a problem, but weren't recognized as one right away.

On the other hand, ridicule and mockery of females through the parody of drag is totally not a problem at all, nope!

Drag doesn't appear to ridicule and mock women, cis or trans, so no, it is totally not a problem at all. Drag usually celebrates things, but when it is used to mock it's either mocking specific absurd gender expectations by wildly exaggerating them (gay men are like women! so they dail that up to 11) or it is mocking the difficulty in men conforming to gender expectations of women (as in comedy invocations of it). The only example of it used to mock women I can think of is the movie White Chicks, which ironically also involves whiteface.

I'm well aware that you wish your in group could control all performances of femininity, and that you'll deny this, but you can't and shouldn't. Listening to drag queens it's very obvious they're not trying to mock women.

 

[Darat]

Drag doesn't appear to ridicule and mock women, cis or trans, so no, it is totally not a problem at all. Drag usually celebrates things, but when it is used to mock it's either mocking specific absurd gender expectations by wildly exaggerating them (gay men are like women! so they dail that up to 11) or it is mocking the difficulty in men conforming to gender expectations of women (as in comedy invocations of it). The only example of it used to mock women I can think of is the movie White Chicks, which ironically also involves whiteface.



I'm well aware that you wish your in group could control all performances of femininity, and that you'll deny this, but you can't and shouldn't. Listening to drag queens it's very obvious they're not trying to mock women.

I've mentioned it before but in the UK drag has been entertainment aimed at 3 audiences, gay men, families and straight women. Most of the large cabaret club style venues have always had predominantly female audiences.