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Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

Matthew Best said:
I did read it. It didn't explain why it's hurtful to be told you have a vagina when you actually have one.
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Well, here we get to one of the parts that would upset Thermal, because as a cisgender man I have no direct experience with that. But to be repeatedly told that you are a girl when you don't think you are a girl can't be good. Because I have no direct experience, and because I cannot read minds, I believe someone when they say that it's hurtful, especially if they appear to feel pretty strongly about it.

We are a long way from pronouns again, though. I expect another thread split soon.
 
Thermal said:
You are giving absolutely nothing. That's what I keep trying to tell you.

What you are giving me is the equivalent of evangelicals giving their personal anecdotes about having God in their lives. What you are skipping over is the evidence of god at all.
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When a person tells you "I'm a Christian" they're telling you that they believe in the Christian religion. You may or may not believe in their god as well, and feel free to argue with them about the existence of their god and/or its nature and history, but do you argue with them by telling them that no, they aren't Christian? You may disagree whether their religious beliefs are correct, but do you disbelieve that they believe it? Or do you tell them "you can't be a Christian because there's no such thing as gods!"
 
Thermal said:
Fair point, but I can certainly tell them they believe in something that is not real, and I for damn sure don't have to play along.

Damn, that analogy really worked out well for me.
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But you're not being asked to "play along" and believe in their religion, you're being asked to believe that they believe in their religion. You can't manage that? If you are at a party and introduced to someone and it comes up in the course of conversation that they go to the Baptist church you have to challenge them on the existence of their god and correctness of their religion? If you see a nun and she introduces herself as Sister Mary you must scream "there is no god!" in her face and tell her she's an idiot? Even if she didn't try to convert you, or mention anything touching religion apart from the fact that she believes in one? Because not getting into a fight with them over their beliefs would...what? Hurt you somehow?
 
TragicMonkey said:
But you're not being asked to "play along" and believe in their religion, you're being asked to believe that they believe in their religion. You can't manage that? If you are at a party and introduced to someone and it comes up in the course of conversation that they go to the Baptist church you have to challenge them on the existence of their god and correctness of their religion? If you see a nun and she introduces herself as Sister Mary you must scream "there is no god!" in her face and tell her she's an idiot? Even if she didn't try to convert you, or mention anything touching religion apart from the fact that she believes in one? Because not getting into a fight with them over their beliefs would...what? Hurt you somehow?
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It depends. Are they also telling you you're not allowed to have your business open on Sundays, because it's rude and hostile and distressing which is violence and let's not forget Wheaton's Law?
 
TragicMonkey said:
But you're not being asked to "play along" and believe in their religion, you're being asked to believe that they believe in their religion. You can't manage that? If you are at a party and introduced to someone and it comes up in the course of conversation that they go to the Baptist church you have to challenge them on the existence of their god and correctness of their religion? If you see a nun and she introduces herself as Sister Mary you must scream "there is no god!" in her face and tell her she's an idiot? Even if she didn't try to convert you, or mention anything touching religion apart from the fact that she believes in one? Because not getting into a fight with them over their beliefs would...what? Hurt you somehow?
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When being blatantly instructed to deny reality in how I view them and use pronouns, you mean? Yeah, that's taking Communion with the brothers.

ETA: I'm all for live and let live. But when I get told to never assume gender and to use ze or they, I'm.being ordered to participate in the play, not quietly observe.
 
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Myriad said:
It depends. Are they also telling you you're not allowed to have your business open on Sundays, because it's rude and hostile and distressing which is violence and let's not forget Wheaton's Law?
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What's being...what can charitably described as 'discussed' here though is very close to the line of reasoning 'I'm not calling you Sister Margret because god doesn't exist and you're not my sister. Sister has only one meaning in English.'

Which is all kinds of daft but makes as much sense as any of the reasons given for being blatantly disrespectful to non-cisgendered preople while demanding no one judge them for it.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It's a burden because it is placing an obligation on other people. Specifically, it places on obligation on how other people are expected to think.
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The only burden it places on other people is to not be a twat. Though I do realise some people find that difficult.

Telling someone your preferred pronouns is effectively saying "I want you to think of me as X". It's an attempt to override another person's perceptions, and to place demands on their brains.
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It's saying, "Please use this word when you refer to me."

If your brain can't handle simple courtesy, that's your problem.
 
TragicMonkey said:
If you see a nun and she introduces herself as Sister Mary you must scream "there is no god!" in her face and tell her she's an idiot?
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This is a good and potentially useful analogy. As a former Catholic and current unbeliever, should I be expected to use Mary's preferred nomenclature and refer to her as "Sister" just as the devout do? How about calling the priest "Father" as a term of respect for their office?

ThatGuy11200 said:
It's saying, "Please use this word when you refer to me."
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Words carry meaningful implications, though. One might well infer beliefs from the words someone uses.
 
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d4m10n said:
This is a good and potentially useful analogy. As a former Catholic and current unbeliever, should I be expected to use Mary's preferred nomenclature and refer to her as "Sister" just as the devout do? How about calling the priest "Father" as a term of respect for their office?
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Those are titles. Generally, it is considered proper to refer to people by their titles, yes. But, again, no one forces you to be polite and you shouldn't be surprised if you receive negative social consequences for being socially rude.
 
d4m10n said:
This is a good and potentially useful analogy. As a former Catholic and current unbeliever, should I be expected to use Mary's preferred nomenclature and refer to her as "Sister" just as the devout do? How about calling the priest "Father" as a term of respect for their office?

Words carry meaningful implications, though. One might well infer beliefs from the words someone uses.
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Me calling someone "father" as a title neither infers nor implies anything about my beliefs. Of course, them asking for other people to use "father" as their title could be telling us something about their beliefs, but I'd always know that those are just my assumptions.
 
d4m10n said:
This is a good and potentially useful analogy. As a former Catholic and current unbeliever, should I be expected to use Mary's preferred nomenclature and refer to her as "Sister" just as the devout do? How about calling the priest "Father" as a term of respect for their office?
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If you wish to be polite you should. If you wish to evade the issue you can simply avoid referring to them at all. If you wish to be rude you should call them something else. If you wish to be very rude you should challenge them on their title and start an argument.

Words carry meaningful implications, though. One might well infer beliefs from the words someone uses.
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Ah. You are very famous, right? And super respected by millions? Who, if they heard you refer to Sister Mary as "Sister Mary" would immediately assume you have just endorsed every precept of Catholicism, and then rush in a teeming mass to Mass, flooding the church coffers with offerings and kicking off a new dark age of superstition. I guess I forgot how very important you are, that your every word choice is so vitally influential upon the world. Yes, then, for you the rules are different. Perhaps you should sew your mouth shut lest you accidentally say something without meaning to and it changes the course of history forever. Why, you might from some thoughtless reflex in a weak moment murmur "bless you" when someone sneezes, and thereby endorse the existence of God and instantly create a global monotheist religion!

Or you could just some ordinary jerk who thinks way too much of his own importance, I dunno, should we Occam's Razor that?
 
TragicMonkey said:
If you wish to be polite you should. If you wish to evade the issue you can simply avoid referring to them at all. If you wish to be rude you should call them something else. If you wish to be very rude you should challenge them on their title and start an argument.

Ah. You are very famous, right? And super respected by millions? Who, if they heard you refer to Sister Mary as "Sister Mary" would immediately assume you have just endorsed every precept of Catholicism, and then rush in a teeming mass to Mass, flooding the church coffers with offerings and kicking off a new dark age of superstition. I guess I forgot how very important you are, that your every word choice is so vitally influential upon the world. Yes, then, for you the rules are different. Perhaps you should sew your mouth shut lest you accidentally say something without meaning to and it changes the course of history forever. Why, you might from some thoughtless reflex in a weak moment murmur "bless you" when someone sneezes, and thereby endorse the existence of God and instantly create a global monotheist religion!

Or you could just some ordinary jerk who thinks way too much of his own importance, I dunno, should we Occam's Razor that?
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*Clap, clap, clap*
 
TragicMonkey said:
If you wish to be polite you should. If you wish to evade the issue you can simply avoid referring to them at all. If you wish to be rude you should call them something else. If you wish to be very rude you should challenge them on their title and start an argument.
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Being "polite" in this case reinforces an existing power structure, one which I don't particularly care to support. One needn't be famous or important in order to decide not to lend their own tiny bit of support to that specific hierarchy. It is a personal choice, one which I'd prefer to make without being pressured by the self-appointed enforcers of politeness and status quo.

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TragicMonkey said:
Or you could just some ordinary jerk who thinks way too much of his own importance, I dunno, should we Occam's Razor that?
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You could try making an argument without resorting to personal attacks, just to see how it feels.



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My actual name is David, I feel bad about correcting people who say Dave.

Now I know I should punch them in the face when that happens.
 
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d4m10n said:
You could try making an argument without resorting to personal attacks, just to see how it feels.
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Good copout if you get to define anyone being rude to you as a personal attack but you doing it to other people isn't.
 
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