Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[smartcooky]

And it could be a hate crime depending on exact situation.

Not a chance. They are well coached and will stick their guns - "This man came into the women's toilet and I felt threatened by his presence"

Europe has been fine thanks, no rapes or stuff that has resulted from our laws - very ok with them here

I'm alright Jack?

And in case you hadn't noticed, the first one was in the UK in 2019 - and the UK was still in Europe.

That's another perfectly good rug out the window.

 

[The Atheist]

Edge cases should never be used to determine outcomes for the vast majority.

The thread can finally be closed.

The vast majority of trans women do not:

Attack women
Sexually assault women
Get off on ogling women in bathrooms and changing rooms
Get sent to any jail
Compete in elite sports
Go to women's refuges...

etc, ad nauseum.

Yet, by many posters accounts, you'd think the reverse was true.

I'm glad we finally sorted the problem out. The vast majority of trans women (and men) want to be respected as humans, not be assaulted for being who they are, and live their lives peacefully, just like the vast majority of all people.

 

[lionking]

The thread can finally be closed.

The vast majority of trans women do not:

Attack women
Sexually assault women
Get off on ogling women in bathrooms and changing rooms
Get sent to any jail
Compete in elite sports
Go to women's refuges...

etc, ad nauseum.

Yet, by many posters accounts, you'd think the reverse was true.

I'm glad we finally sorted the problem out. The vast majority of trans women (and men) want to be respected as humans, not be assaulted for being who they are, and live their lives peacefully, just like the vast majority of all people.

You know what would be really neat? Quoting anyone in this thread claiming that the majority of transwomen do any of those things.

 

[Blank]

But here is the thing.... you are mistaken - these things are never as black and white as you have conned yourself into believing.

I am 100% supportive of LGBTQ rights. Over the almost 11 years I have posted here, that is pretty much what my body of work will show. Everyone here knows I am politically a left wing liberal. If I was American I would be a Democratic voter,

Where my left-wing liberalism ends is allowing obvious males the legal right to enter female safe spaces.

So now they are female safe spaces - There is absolutely no problem with providing safe spaces for people with a certain set of jiggly parts, just as long as it is followed as stated and non-discriminatory alternative is offered if this space is rejected from someone, also enforcement cannot be based on checking with groping or such obviously.

Providing a "penis free zone" would not be discriminatory unless it gets expanded to cover transitioned people and people that are not in that category are offered a viable alternative - i.e unisex stall or something like that. Practice just needs to be grounded on objectivity and principle of protecting the threatened class (Which is the trans - usually women transitioning to men are the most targeted) not some "I feel like" bs. Misrepresenting and straight out lies about the law here has caused more damage than the law and surprisingly it has usually originated from the socially conservative side who are in crazied about how they actually have to take other people into account and shocked, I mean shocked that transpeople have rights.

If the IOC or whatever has made clear sets of rules that are objective then good for them as well - however any notion of someone cheating if they are operating within the current set of rules is weak. If they want to make a division for size 10 feet swimmers, go for it - I don't want gov. involvement in a private business.

As for prisons, here the default is "prison as assigned by the gender identity, unless necessary to change in order to protect the inmate or other people from harm"

 

[lionking]

Yet another ridiculous fringe re-set.

 

[Ziggurat]

The vast majority of trans women do not:

Attack women
Sexually assault women
Get off on ogling women in bathrooms and changing rooms
Get sent to any jail
Compete in elite sports
Go to women's refuges...

etc, ad nauseum.

Yet, by many posters accounts, you'd think the reverse was true.

The vast majority of men don't do any of that. So by TRA accounts, you'd think that sex segregation under any circumstances would be unjustified. Yet they aren't calling for the abolishing of all sex segregation.

 

[smartcooky]

So now they are female safe spaces - There is absolutely no problem with providing safe spaces for people with a certain set of jiggly parts

Disgusting!

 

[smartcooky]

The vast majority of men don't do any of that. So by TRA accounts, you'd think that sex segregation under any circumstances would be unjustified. Yet they aren't calling for the abolishing of all sex segregation.

Boom!

 

[Myriad]

You can't prevent a transwoman from participating in a sport you think they are not allowed to or decide on their cell location if they have the legal right to it.

Yes you can, in the U.S. You can vote Republican.

I think girls and women should have the right to abortion, and the right not to be confined in prisons with convicts who have fully functional male genitalia. Support both rights and you almost certainly (barring other major problems with your politics) have my vote. Make me choose one or the other and I'll, well, choose one or the other.

 

[lionking]

Yes you can, in the U.S. You can vote Republican.

I think girls and women should have the right to abortion, and the right not to be confined in prisons with convicts who have fully functional male genitalia. Support both rights and you almost certainly (barring other major problems with your politics) have my vote. Make me choose one or the other and I'll, well, choose one or the other.

 

[theprestige]

And it could be a hate crime depending on exact situation.

Europe has been fine thanks, no rapes or stuff that has resulted from our laws - very ok with them here.

Then again, criminals deserve to be punished and perps were caught and prosecuted?

Can't follow logic here
Some Transpeople are criminals that misuse their rights
All transwomen need to lose their rights

Does it apply to everything:
Some people are criminals that misuse their rights
All people need to lose rights

If you apply the logic to only transes you are pretty much a transphobe.

This brings us back full circle to one of the very first questions raised in this thread:

What safeguards do you propose, to hedge against sexual predators exploiting self-ID to gain access to vulnerable people who were previously protected by law and convention against this risk?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This brings us back full circle to one of the very first questions raised in this thread:

What safeguards do you propose, to hedge against sexual predators from exploiting self-ID to gain access to vulnerable people who were previously protected by law and convention against this risk?

Were they previously protected? A ladies room sign has never stopped someone from committing a crime if they wanted to. Peeping toms could still hide out in stalls and rapists could still barge into bathrooms in years past, little skirted bathroom sign be damned.

 

[Ziggurat]

Were they previously protected?

To some degree.

A ladies room sign has never stopped someone from committing a crime if they wanted to.

Sure. But seeing a man enter could prompt a response. Now it can't. Imperfect protection is better than no protection.

 

[Elaedith]

Were they previously protected? A ladies room sign has never stopped someone from committing a crime if they wanted to. Peeping toms could still hide out in stalls and rapists could still barge into bathrooms in years past, little skirted bathroom sign be damned.

Women detecting a male hiding in a stall or entering a female changing room can immediately take protective action or raise the alarm. The proposal is that women should lose the right to do so, and can't take any action until actually assaulted, because any male detected in a female space must be assumed to be a woman (even without any transitioning). Your argument has been addressed many times and is tiresome.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, yes. Because you believe that there's really no such thing as trans women, don't you?

I believe that there are some males who wish to be female, or who claim to identify as "women". I do not, however, believe that they are actually females in any sense whatsoever, and thus, they are not literal women.

I accept that there are some few people with severe gender dysphoria. Without that condition, it's nothing more than an affinity with a particular set of regressive stereotypes.

That's why you use the "anti-trans-approved" vocabulary "trans identifying males", isn't it?

I use the term transgender identifying male/female because that is what it actually is. These are males or females who IDENTIFY as being transgender, and who IDENTIFY as the opposite sex. But their actual sex does not change. A male remains a male, regardless of how they identify.

I sometimes use the terms transwoman or transman, when the fact of sex is not material to the discussion.

And it's why you mock transgender identity as "LARPing" and so forth, and accuse trans people of being mentally ill. Isn't it.

I don't use those terms. Stop maliciously putting words in my mouth.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What a misrepresentive analogy that is so far off the mark and trying to push the "protect women bla bla bla.." button so much.

A more apt analogy would be (going on farm):

A farm inhabited by chicken, foxes and raccoons that had a concept of inalienable animal rights for all had a barn. For decades chicken lived in one side of the barn, foxes among them while the raccoons were kicked out to the ditch. Now and then a raccoon tried to enter the barn only to get bitten by foxes and clucked at by chicken - until one day the raccoons had enough and raised their voice:
"The barn is for all animals, winged or furry"

This statement was met with ridicule and malice:
"We need to keep the chickens safe" said the foxes in unison. "There's no space for you" said the chickens. How it will end up is still in question.. Does the farm have inalienable animal rights for all or is it just talk without substance?

In your analogy, you are implying that transgender identified people are neither male nor female, but something entirely different.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Don't know, don't care.. Some might feel safer living in the corner with chickens, some in the corner with foxes and some in their own private corner. But protecting the chicken from raccoons after they have lived among the foxes for decades seems a bit dishonest to me.

Yeah, the foxes have not been allowed into the chicken coop. Males have not been allowed into female-only spaces.

You seem to not give a single **** about whether or not the chickens feel safe having racoons in with them against their will. Which is a fairly common view - those who loudly proclaim for the rights of some males to violate female boundaries at will don't care about the views, safety, or dignity of the females affected by that view.

 

[Emily's Cat]

However the point might be in such a barn where foxes have time after time eaten chickens but raccoons have not yet shown or proven to be a menace - they might or might not prove a danger.. Wouldn't the most logical option in order to truly protect the chickens be, to kick the foxes to the ditch and fill their coops with raccoons?

1) Transgender identified people are still either male or female, they are not a third sex altogether. There are no racoons - every racoon is either a chicken or a fox. They're either a chicken that has dyed their feathers red and stuck some ears on their heads, or they're a fox that has covered themselves in feathers.

2) We actually do have data that demonstrates that transgender identified males retain male patterns of criminality, including the prevalence of violence and sexual assaults. We also know that transgender identified females demonstrate and increased rate of violence that approaches the level shown by males. We also have data from both the US and the UK that shows that transgender identified male in prison have a higher rate of sex offenses than males in general.

 

[Emily's Cat]

3rd/non-gender people are medically and scientifically separate - this is the consensus, they are not mentally ill, they are not somehow sick, they are people who do not belong to either female/male category.

This is entirely false. Every human is either male or female, no third sex exists. If you wish to prove me wrong, go for it. All you need to do is provide a single case of a human being who has a reproductive anatomy that has clearly evolved to produce a third type of gamete. That's all. Go for it.

So you are for collective punishment based on belonging to a group? And for limiting rights that are in a modern society attributed to that group with presumption of guilt? And yet giving a pass to the foxes in my analogy?

Is it punishment for males to use male facilities? Nobody is limiting anyone's rights - we are asking that the rights and boundaries of females not be thrown out in favor of the feelings of a subset of males.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's the rub. There's huge begging of the question that these inclusive policies increase this kind of crime. Ever since the bathroom panic got trotted out years ago by reactionaries fighting tooth and nail for keeping trans people excluded have not been able to provide any actual evidence (not anecdotes, but evidence) that these policies increase violence in these spaces.

When you dismiss every single instance as being an "anecdote", you have outed yourself as being completely willing to ignore the negative impact on females.

What number of assaults against females in female-only spaces is an acceptable number for you? How many females must be harmed by males in female-only spaces before you'll stop dismissing it as unimportant?