Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Pixel42]

The stand is indeed simple. The question is: can it be justified?

Sometimes rights conflict, and finding solutions which are acceptable to everyone is always difficult. It's impossible when a vocal group flatly refuse to compromise (or in some cases even recognise that a conflict exists) and insist that the only acceptable solution is for 50% of humanity to give up their rights to safety, dignity and fair competition.

 

[Blank]

Any way you slice it, when you support the right of transgender women to access women safe spaces, you are saying that the above persons should be allowed that access as of right.

Has anyone of them tried to access womens locker room? What stopped them? Here the locker rooms are not locked and the text on the door is not something that will stop anyone. Unisex bathrooms work fine if those are needed.

The argument was used extensively here and in other countries in Europe where laws for gender identification we're implemented and surprise surprise - not a single rape or sexual assault towards a woman by another woman in a locker room has happened.

Criminals exist, what news is that - is showing a clean sheet to access a locker room mandatory?

Edge cases should never be used to determine outcomes for the vast majority. They should be treated as what they are, on a case-by-case basis.

Judged by who and when and how - current legal framework states (here atleast) that they are who they say they are as judged by themselves and if I understand the similar statutes are in effect in the USA? Denying this is an act of discrimination at workplace/office surroundings.. You might not agree, but disagreeing with a law doesn't give rights to break them. You can also try to suggest changes to the law.

 

[lionking]

Has anyone of them tried to access womens locker room? What stopped them? Here the locker rooms are not locked and the text on the door is not something that will stop anyone. Unisex bathrooms work fine if those are needed.

For goodness sake, there have been ample cases referenced in this thread of self IDd transwomen accessing women’s locker rooms.

Please explain to me why women have to give up safe spaces, women’s sporting competitions and women’s prisons to biological untransitioned males?

 

[Pixel42]

Situation 1: males are requested not to enter female changing rooms. If one does, and walks around naked ogling the naked women, those women can raise the alarm with the expection that this individual will be removed and possibly arrested

Situation 2: males who identify as males are requested not to enter female changing rooms. If a male who says they identify as female enters and walks around naked ogling the naked women, those women know that if they object they are the ones who are likely to be arrested

That is a significant reduction in the rights of females.

 

[Blank]

Please explain to me why women have to give up safe spaces, women’s sporting competitions and women’s prisons to biological untransitioned males?

Because they are legally women as apparently stated by the law there as well (since I have a feeling that prisons atleast operate as state/fed institutions as law mandates)

 

[lionking]

Because they are legally women as apparently stated by the law there as well (since I have a feeling that prisons atleast operate as state/fed institutions as law mandates)

How very circular of you. Now try a rational justification for denying women’s rights to privacy and safety.

 

[Blank]

How very circular of you. Now try a rational justification for denying women’s rights to privacy and safety.

Everyone has a right to privacy and safety - you are currently trying to deny some women this same right following your own definition of woman and extending the protections to people who abide by your stereotype of a woman. The dingly bits qualifier was tossed out atleast when the debate was raging here and a lot of complaining and moaning but no one gave any sort of working solution that is not oppressive or follows general western legal principles so here we are - I personally thought that ongoing transitioning treatment would have been a decent one, but it was not workable due to some issues with medical info classifications or something.

Rights atleast in my mind come primarily from legal side and any enforcement of the rights is a legal process.

 

[Samson]

Everyone has a right to privacy and safety - you are currently trying to deny some women this same right following your own definition of woman and extending the protections to people who abide by your stereotype of a woman. The dingly bits qualifier was tossed out atleast when the debate was raging here and a lot of complaining and moaning but no one gave any sort of working solution that is not oppressive or follows general western legal principles so here we are - I personally thought that ongoing transitioning treatment would have been a decent one, but it was not workable due to some issues with medical info classifications or something.

Rights atleast in my mind come primarily from legal side and any enforcement of the rights is a legal process.

Thank goodness for that. Exonerated. The law is not an ass.

 

[lionking]

Everyone has a right to privacy and safety - you are currently trying to deny some women this same right following your own definition of woman and extending the protections to people who abide by your stereotype of a woman. The dingly bits qualifier was tossed out atleast when the debate was raging here and a lot of complaining and moaning but no one gave any sort of working solution that is not oppressive or follows general western legal principles so here we are - I personally thought that ongoing transitioning treatment would have been a decent one, but it was not workable due to some issues with medical info classifications or something.
Rights atleast in my mind come primarily from legal side and any enforcement of the rights is a legal process.

Nonsense. It’s a fact that most self IDd transwomen have no intention of taking drugs or having surgery.

 

[Pixel42]

Everyone has a right to privacy and safety - you are currently trying to deny some women this same right

Whilst you are trying to deny almost all women that right.

Transwomen have been quietly accepted by ciswomen into their safe spaces for decades. It wasn't an issue until ham fisted attempts by TRAs to codify that acceptance into law resulted in pushback due to the appalling implications for the rights of all women.

 

[Blank]

Situation 1: males are requested not to enter female changing rooms. If one does, and walks around naked ogling the naked women, those women can raise the alarm with the expection that this individual will be removed and possibly arrested

Situation 2: males who identify as males are requested not to enter female changing rooms. If a male who says they identify as female enters and walks around naked ogling the naked women, those women know that if they object they are the ones who are likely to be arrested

That is a significant reduction in the rights of females.

In the situation 2, no they are not even remotely likely to be arrested. Reporting something you might think is illegal is not a crime no matter how much you paint it to be to get a shocked reaction.

They report, then a professional officer of the law comes and defuses the situation - If it is public disturbance, it gets handled as such, atleast our country has laws to prevent harassment in public places.

Or do you have an example of anything like this happening?

 

[smartcooky]

Has anyone of them tried to access womens locker room? What stopped them? Here the locker rooms are not locked and the text on the door is not something that will stop anyone. Unisex bathrooms work fine if those are needed.

That isn't the point, You're just dodging.

The argument was used extensively here and in other countries in Europe where laws for gender identification we're implemented and surprise surprise - not a single rape or sexual assault towards a woman by another woman in a locker room has happened.

Great plan... wait until a transgender woman rapes or sexually assaults a woman in a bathroom... and THEN do something about it

Oh, wait...

https://thebridgehead.ca/2019/02/13...ts-ten-year-old-girl-in-supermarket-bathroom/

"Biological male identifying as female sexually assaults ten-year-old girl in supermarket bathroom"

"She grabbed the terrified youngster by the face, shoved her into the cubicle and ordered her to remove her trousers.

When (the victim) came out of her cubicle, Dolatowski shoved her back in and told her there was a man outside who would kill her mother. The brave schoolgirl, however, punched Dolatowski in the face, stomach and groin and ran to her father and siblings waiting just outside the toilets."​

Well, that rips the rug out from under your crap argument!

Another sentiment expressed in the article is one I agree with 100%

"The simple fact is that when you remove all identifiable standards for who is actually a woman and instead say that men with beards and penises can not only identify as women, but gain access to women-only spaces by doing so, you place people in danger. It is insane to think that there are not those who will take advantage of the obliteration of our safety standards, just like the biological men who have decided to identify as women to get sent to female prisons (and rape women there) are doing, and just like this young man who managed to escape jail despite going after female children in the women’s bathroom twice. I’ll bet “Katie” is still allowed in women’s bathrooms, too—you’ll notice that the media and the courts obediently treated this biological male as a woman."
​

ETA: and another one... https://www.qcnews.com/news/transge...ally-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom/

ETA2: and another... https://www.kxii.com/content/news/T...ually-assaults-teen-in-walmart-505820451.html

 

[smartcooky]

Rights atleast in my mind come primarily from legal side and any enforcement of the rights is a legal process.

My girls have been taught to enforce their rights, and they will do so. Anything looking like a man that comes into a public bathroom they are in will get a faceful of pepper spray (and its already happened at least once).

 

[Blank]

Whilst you are trying to deny almost all women that right.

Transwomen have been quietly accepted by ciswomen into their safe spaces for decades. It wasn't an issue until ham fisted attempts by TRAs to codify that acceptance into law resulted in pushback due to the appalling implications for the rights of all women.

If only the uppity Transwomen were quiet? Minorities might not be quiet, no idea about TRAs or their goals there, any goal statement given from non-TRA source is liable to be full of hyperbole anyway.

As requested in another thread - What law has been codified? Europe had new trans-laws popping out in several countries but USA, only reference was to SC interpetation on an old law.

 

[Pixel42]

In the situation 2, no they are not even remotely likely to be arrested. Reporting something you might think is illegal is not a crime no matter how much you paint it to be to get a shocked reaction.

They report, then a professional officer of the law comes and defuses the situation - If it is public disturbance, it gets handled as such, atleast our country has laws to prevent harassment in public places.

Or do you have an example of anything like this happening?

An example of this happening was being discussed in this thread a few days ago.

The point is that in the past it was rarely necessary to involve the police because anyone within earshot would scramble to help to eject the offender promptly. Now neither victims nor bystanders are likely to do anything, let alone call the police, because intact males are apparently free to do this with impunity provided they utter certain magic words.

 

[Blank]

My girls have been taught to enforce their rights, and they will do so. Anything looking like a man that comes into a public bathroom they are in will get a faceful of pepper spray (and its already happened at least once).

And it could be a hate crime depending on exact situation.

Europe has been fine thanks, no rapes or stuff that has resulted from our laws - very ok with them here.

Then again, criminals deserve to be punished and perps were caught and prosecuted?

Can't follow logic here
Some Transpeople are criminals that misuse their rights
All transwomen need to lose their rights

Does it apply to everything:
Some people are criminals that misuse their rights
All people need to lose rights

If you apply the logic to only transes you are pretty much a transphobe.

 

[lionking]

If you apply the logic to only transes you are pretty much a transphobe.

Yes the same old cowardly claim so many throw up.

Objecting to intact, biological males participating in women’s sport and accessing women’s prisons is not transphobic. Live with it.

 

[Blank]

Yes the same old cowardly claim so many throw up.

Objecting to intact, biological males participating in women’s sport and accessing women’s prisons is not transphobic. Live with it.

No problem - being a transphobe is not a problem just as long as you don't do illegal acts based on that.

You can't prevent a transwoman from participating in a sport you think they are not allowed to or decide on their cell location if they have the legal right to it. Live with it.

 

[lionking]

No problem - being a transphobe is not a problem just as long as you don't do illegal acts based on that.

You can't prevent a transwoman from participating in a sport you think they are not allowed to or decide on their cell location if they have the legal right to it. Live with it.

Catch up. Lia Thomas did not get to the last Olympics and will not go to future Games. International sporting bodies are not allowing males who have gone through puberty to participate at the highest level.

Also, your beloved Europe is reversing their previous pro trans policies, with Sweden reversing gender affirming treatment to minors.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230208-sweden-puts-brakes-on-treatments-for-trans-minors

The UK has closed down GIDS.

https://segm.org/UK_shuts-down-worlds-biggest-gender-clinic-for-kids

All these things have been covered in detail in this thread.

 

[smartcooky]

If you apply the logic to only transes you are pretty much a transphobe.

But here is the thing.... you are mistaken - these things are never as black and white as you have conned yourself into believing.

I am 100% supportive of LGBTQ rights. Over the almost 11 years I have posted here, that is pretty much what my body of work will show. Everyone here knows I am politically a left wing liberal. If I was American I would be a Democratic voter,

Where my left-wing liberalism ends is allowing obvious males the legal right to enter female safe spaces.