Split Thread Atheism and lack of belief in the afterlife

[Thermal]

I wonder if the hawkers for Imbecilic Design think that Quetzalcoatl or Unkulunkulu is the designer??

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512824e570dd00aeb0.jpg[/qimg]​

A designer? With that fashion sense? Come on.

 

[Delvo]

Yes, as I've said, ID is a failed hypothesis.

No, it is not. Hypotheses start with evidence and try to get to conclusions. ID starts with the conclusion and goes from there to lies about the evidence.

Seriously: after all I've said, after the numerous times that I've said that ID is wrong, do you think that I support ID?

Given the proven fact that ID is nothing but a name for Creationism, and that it not only never used anything resembling a scientific process in any way but even exists primarily as a continuation of Creationists' constant mockery of and attack on science, yes, promoting the IDers' self-congratulating lies that it's scientific is supporting it.

"Wrong" is not the worst thing an idea can be. "Lying" and "not even trying for accuracy" are worse. To assert that an idea which is actually both of the latter two things is merely "wrong" is to try to give that idea a promotion up to that higher level.

 

[Leumas]

That poster and I were both putting up opinions without evidence.

Utter codswallop.... only you were doing that as can be clearly seen by anyone who can READ.

... a spiritual experiences or whatever you want to call it. I found that to be the case when I wanted to fly. No, I couldn't leap off the ground like Homelander, but by every substantial standard I was able to fly, just not in the idealized way that I started imagining it (courtesy of a skydiving logbook and USHGA pilot ratings and the like). God experiences may end up working the same way. A lot of people said men couldn't fly, until a few refused to make that their starting assumption.

You EQUIVOCATED in the above, humanity's quest to fly with humanity's quest for gods.

Which is a fallacious equivocation and I showed you that by telling you the FACTS.

In the case of flying we have and had EXAMPLES of things that fly... and we have air and aerodynamics has been studied by the Greeks and Chinese for millennia.

In the case of "god" we have Bupkis of precedents and Nil of examples and Naught of anything to go by.

In fact... I take that back... we have scads and oodles to go by... unfortunately for the god hawkers... all these oodles and scads of things to go by in fact rive asunder any possibility of a god.

Flying, which if we go by evidence and reality, was not a fools' errand like that for god which the evidence of reality shows is indeed a fools' errand.

And you responded with the utter poppycock of...

...
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Applies to both of us, interestingly. But only one of us is aware of it.

Which has absolutely nothing with anything to do with the FACTS I said in regards to your FALSE EQUIVOCATION of quests for gods and quests for flying.

And you FURTHER equivocate your false equivocation with my facts as equally not evinced....

Which is utter nonsense.... just as this post correctly said.

This is so pointless I can't tell which of you both that you are referring to and what it is supposed to mean.

 

[Leumas]

And yet you suggest ID proponents are practicing science.

It stems from not actually understanding what "doing science" is in the first place.... as shown here and here and here and here and here.

 

[psionl0]

I linked to the full article.

No you didn't - or - at least - you didn't in your answer to my post. And even if you have posted a link to the article elsewhere, it doesn't answer my question.

 

[Leumas]

No. You're asking a lot of odd questions tonight.

What you described was exactly what drug addicts do...

Here have a look

...... But some seem to have more going on, to the point where they dedicate their lives to it, and others willing to die for it..

Um...because they like to have fun, and wanted to share with you some fun, perhaps because they thought you were fun and would like to have fun with them? That's pretty much why others offered recreational substances to me, which I must admit I lacked your restraint in accepting.

So drug addicts and who are also drug pushers are FUN???

And being incapacitated to the point of helplessness and utter unawareness of reality.... is FUN?

Ah well...

Turned out pretty fun for all involved most of the time, if memory serves. Memory might be a little hazy for some of the times, of course.

Clueless obliviousness.... is fun???

You got some kind of point you'd like to get around to?

You already made it above.... thanks!!!

I suggest you do the same, as drug induced euphoria are notoriously short lived, and religious euphoria is often a lifetime gig.

Yes... that is what happens as a result of mental disorders induced euphoria.

Also, drug induced euphoria results from chemical interactions triggered by the substances, and wears off quickly, usually leaving users crashed, while religious ecstacy is spontaneous and has no withdrawal.

If one is constantly in a stupor then there would not be any crashing... you are right.

They actually have remarkably little in common, come to that.

You may be right... religion is like being constantly on drugs or like having a mental disorder... I agree!!!

Care to stagger around to making your point a little clearer, perhaps with a complete thought?

You already made it above... thanks!!!

 

[Leumas]

A designer? With that fashion sense? Come on.

In fact the fashion sense of Quetzalcoatl reflects well the cobbled together mess that is the universe and the world and biology.

 

[Nessie]

Speaking of an afterlife, I recall the hilarious South Park episode where it turned out the Mormons had it right and making macaroni pictures was something people could look forward to after death.

It reminds of so many movies and stories where one lives 'happily ever after' but that is never defined or even described.

So for any of you here that believe in an afterlife, have you thought those details out?

Exactly. What do you think you will be doing, in heaven, in a billion years time?

The only way to cope with still being alive, after a billion years, would to spend most of it asleep, or induced coma, with no dreaming.

 

[Leumas]

The only way to cope with still being alive, after a billion years, would to spend most of it asleep, or induced coma, with no dreaming.

It will take billions of years to explore all the different galaxies... that is what I would do... but you are right... religion described heavens are worse than hell.

 

[Darat]

Well, perhaps in some cases. I always had the impression that ID differed from Young Earth Creationism. It seemed to be meant to distance from the idea of literal biblical creationism.

Hans

Its origins are traced directly to the infamous "wedge" document. It was theology with the word "god" being replaced with ID.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

The ancient Hebrews apparently didn't think so. Their idea of reincarnation seems to have been your original body getting up again right where it was put, just in a new & improved state. ...snip....

Which was also the mainstream Christian position for about 1960 years - that's why the RCC was against cremation for so long, its also why burning was used heretics and the likes, it was destroying the body so they could never be resurrected. The idea that when we die we go to heaven was not mainstream Christian theology as represented by the RCC and EOC. The theology was that Jesus turns up again, we all rise from our graves, decide whether to fight on Jesus side or not, and then when Jesus wins those that fought by his side then get to spend eternity looking at god. Those that didn't fight on his side are left behind never to get into heaven, the meek inheriting the earth was an insult meant to gee people up and make them militant - both figuratively and literally.

 

[Pixel42]

I thought after Judgement Day the Kingdom of Heaven would be established right here on earth? So the good guys wouldn't go anywhere, they'd stay right here as here would now be heaven, whilst the bad guys would be cast into hell, which was presumably somewhere below it?

I may have misunderstood.

 

[Darat]

Well, I guess I'm the only one who will stick up for science! Of course it was scientific. Hypotheses are, by their very nature, tentative. They are proposed and tested.

No it wasn't, just because someone claims dishonestly that it was science doesn't make it science. It was theology with the word god replaced with ID. As has been mentioned the book they wanted to get into schools was the creationist book with quite literally a search and replace on the word god.

....snip...

What a strange argument we are having on this board! First people deny that ID has had peer reviewed articles published. Then they deny that ID is a hypothesis. Bizarre! Sounds like people feel the purity of science is at stake by somehow admitting that ID has had peer reviewed articles published.

Sadly the propaganda as outlined in the wedge document has had some success in convincing you. The propaganda is lies.

....snip...

Darat, I invite you to join the side of science. Admit that ID is a failed hypothesis! Admit that science works!

The facts are clear - it was never a scientific hypothesis.

I totally agree! Creationists were trying to use ID to slip creationism under the covers. But so what?

Read the wedge document. Or better still: https://academic.oup.com/book/3985

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Sheesh. Defending science is hard, but someone has to do it.

All you are doing is defending the propaganda of the Discovery Institute.

 

[Darat]

Maybe there is a god who made creatures in its image and granted them glorious things. And then a few billion light years away on a random backwater planet some hapless animals evolved into sentient beings. Whoops.

I don't actually believe that, but it's telling that all believers go for a god that cares.

If you look at the vastness of the universe it does seem a rather wasteful way to get down to one planet, one sliver of area on that planet and one subset of one species. The universe is pretty much 100% hostile to Christians, goodness knows what magnitude we need to get down to before Christians are anything but insignificant statistical noise!

 

[Darat]

I thought after Judgement Day the Kingdom of Heaven would be established right here on earth? So the good guys wouldn't go anywhere, they'd stay right here as here would now be heaven, whilst the bad guys would be cast into hell, which was presumably somewhere below it?

I may have misunderstood.

You are really getting into the nitty gritty of RCC theology, they have had literally thousands of years to talk about this so the answer is - for the extent of this thread - "it's complicated".

 

[Pixel42]

You are really getting into the nitty gritty of RCC theology, they have had literally thousands of years to talk about this so the answer is - for the extent of this thread - "it's complicated".

Come to think of it I don't really care, so I accept that answer.

 

[Steve]

I surrender! You are right, there is no article supporting ID in a peer reviewed journal, so obviously I can't have did notmentioned any. You have convinced me. Well done!

Edited for accuracy.

 

[Nessie]

It will take billions of years to explore all the different galaxies... that is what I would do... but you are right... religion described heavens are worse than hell.

Even that would get boring after a while, as you get to your 10,000th icy planet.

It is also incredibly cruel to imagine an afterlife of eternal torture in hell, even for the worst of human beings.

 

[Chanakya]

If there were actually a heaven, then it would be full of rampaging angels frothing at the mouth and smashing harps and haloes left and right and center, and strangling one another with the chords off of them.

A few years, at most a few decades, maybe if you're a bona fide saint a century or two, and you're bound to go off of your rocker, sitting around doing nothing but but listening to ******* harps, and staring up at the three-headed schizo freakshow that is the Godhead!