Split Thread Atheism and lack of belief in the afterlife

[acbytesla]

Humans are social animals, and we have a biological need to connect with others. In modern times the World has become a small place, so we are looking further afield for new people to meet. This may not be rational, but emotions never are.

Projects like SETI make me a little sad, but no more so than all the people lining up to buy lottery tickets. So long as it's just a hobby I can't complain (my own hobbies have little value outside of entertainment). And who knows, they might even stumble onto something useful while indugling in their fantasy.

You may find it 'funny' that even 'rationalists' need some fantasy in their lives, but that's our nature. A bit of fantasy makes life more enjoyable. However too much can be bad for the individual and everyone. Right now the majority of the population believes the fantasy that global warming isn't that big a deal and we won't need to do much about it. I would be happy if those people believed in a God if it got them to take this issue more seriously.

Unfortunately with religion it is just as likely to go the other way - once people have swallowed one outrageous lie they are more likely to be sucked in by others - some of which are harmful. One hopes that people who have come to realize that God is fantasy will be more realistic about other things too.

But some things matter more than others. Believing in the 'possibility' of aliens is less of a worry than believing they are visiting Earth and causing mischief, or that they will bring us much-needed advanced technology to solve our problems. The Universe is a big place. The idea that there is intelligent life out there is not ridiculous - after all we already have over 8 billion examples on our own planet. The only fantasy is that it makes any difference to how we should live our own lives.

That I think there is a probability that there is life on another planet somewhere in the universe isn't exactly a fantasy. I have fantasies, but they usually involve beautiful women.

 

[Thermal]

Just want to butt in here to point out that we've already been over the dragon in the garage thing, and quite extensively.

Didn't get real cranking far with it over there, either.

 

[arthwollipot]

Didn't get real cranking far with it over there, either.

There did seem to be a persistent misunderstanding that the dragon in the garage was a metaphor for the logical fallacy of special pleading, yes.

 

[Leumas]

That I think there is a probability that there is life on another planet somewhere in the universe isn't exactly a fantasy. I have fantasies, but they usually involve beautiful women.

That is not a fantasy... that is a hope... and if only you had enough money many beautiful and not so beautiful women would be clambering to make your hope become reality...

Where the fantasy kicks in, is that this realized hope will continue to be real and not inevitably metamorphose into a hideous nightmare.

 

[Thermal]

There did seem to be a persistent misunderstanding that the dragon in the garage was a metaphor for the logical fallacy of special pleading, yes.

There were a lot of "misunderstandings". One could start with posters authoritatively stating what Sagan, a self-declared agnostic, meant. It was funny for a while and got a little sad later.

 

[arthwollipot]

There were a lot of "misunderstandings". One could start with posters authoritatively stating what Sagan, a self-declared agnostic, meant. It was funny for a while and got a little sad later.

Good times.

 

[bruto]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

I don't see why it's funny. I do not believe anyone has encountered an alien, for various reasons of practicality, distance, and technological history, but in the mind-bendingly vast universe which contains billions of stars and untold numbers of habitable planets in galaxies many billions of years older than our own solar system, the likelihood of other life out there seems reasonably high, even if the likelihood that we'll ever meet it is very low.

I think the idea that we're so special that we're the only living things in the universe is more consonant with theism.

 

[bruto]

That is not a fantasy... that is a hope... and if only you had enough money many beautiful and not so beautiful women would be clambering to make your hope become reality...

Where the fantasy kicks in, is that this realized hope will continue to be real and not inevitably metamorphose into a hideous nightmare.

That might partly depend on your age. Alas, for some of us, what was once hope is fast receding into the realm of fantasy too.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't see why it's funny. I do not believe anyone has encountered an alien, for various reasons of practicality, distance, and technological history, but in the mind-bendingly vast universe which contains billions of stars and untold numbers of habitable planets in galaxies many billions of years older than our own solar system, the likelihood of other life out there seems reasonably high, even if the likelihood that we'll ever meet it is very low.

I think the idea that we're so special that we're the only living things in the universe is more consonant with theism.

You have identified the problem with discovering life outside of our solar system. While I think it is probable there is alien life elsewhere in the Universe, I am highly skeptical of our abilty to ever prove this. The distances are simply too great.

Also, it should be noted that while I believe it is likely there is alien life somewhere, it doesn't affect my life in any meaningful way. I don't presume I and others should follow rules on how we should live our lives as written down in the Intergalactic Encyclopedia.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

To everyone that took the time to reply to my comment: The reason I find it funny that some ridicule God as something unproven is that they're just as likely to grasp at something else that's unproven, like aliens.

There seems to be a disconnect regarding what is acceptable that as of yet is unproven and what is not acceptable that is yet unproven. Maybe it's just my sense of humor, but to me that is hilarious.

"You can't believe in God, it's just a made up story."
"It's likely we are not alone in the Universe."

One of these beliefs is exactly like the other...

 

[Leumas]

...
"You can't believe in God, it's just a made up story."
"It's likely we are not alone in the Universe."

One of these beliefs is exactly like the other...

No they are not if you understand the science of REALITY... and anything about probability and evidence and biology and chemistry and physics.... not to mention cosmology.

 

[Leumas]

To everyone that took the time to reply to my comment: The reason I find it funny that some ridicule God as something unproven is that they're just as likely to grasp at something else that's unproven, like aliens.

And it is even more risible that the ones who laugh at people who believe in Quetzalcoatl and Hanuman find it not at all laughable that they believe in their equally hilarious gods.

There seems to be a disconnect regarding what is acceptable that as of yet is unproven and what is not acceptable that is yet unproven. Maybe it's just my sense of humor, but to me that is hilarious.

Do you find believing in "god" equally infantile as believing in the tooth fairy?

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

No they are not if you understand the science of REALITY... and anything about probability and evidence and biology and chemistry and physics.... not to mention cosmology.

And it is even more risible that the ones who laugh at people who believe in Quetzalcoatl and Hanuman find it not all laughable that they believe in their equally hilarious gods.





Do you find believing in "god" equally infantile as believing in the tooth fairy?

I find "belief" to be a faith based concept. You can try to justify or rationalize your faith in many ways but in the end we're still talking about "faith" and not evidence.

 

[Thermal]

To everyone that took the time to reply to my comment: The reason I find it funny that some ridicule God as something unproven is that they're just as likely to grasp at something else that's unproven, like aliens.

There seems to be a disconnect regarding what is acceptable that as of yet is unproven and what is not acceptable that is yet unproven. Maybe it's just my sense of humor, but to me that is hilarious.

"You can't believe in God, it's just a made up story." "It's likely we are not alone in the Universe."
One of these beliefs is exactly like the other...

In fairness, the latter can have a mathematical likelihood, just based on the sheer number of detectable and inferred planets, especially in the Goldilocks Zone. The former not so much.

 

[Leumas]

That might partly depend on your age. Alas, for some of us, what was once hope is fast receding into the realm of fantasy too.

Judging by the gold digger on Rupert Murdoch's quivering arm on the news the other day... I guess that age might have to be well into the triple digits then.... not to mention the one on the arm of his human dog called Trump.

 

[Leumas]

I find "belief" to be a faith based concept. You can try to justify or rationalize your faith in many ways but in the end we're still talking about "faith" and not evidence.

Not if you understand the science of REALITY... and anything about probability and evidence and biology and chemistry and physics.... not to mention sociology and anthropology and history.

 

[Leumas]

I find "belief" to be a faith based concept. You can try to justify or rationalize your faith in many ways but in the end we're still talking about "faith" and not evidence.

And you are evading the question... Do you find believing in "god" equally infantile as believing in the tooth fairy?

Do you think "faith" in Hanuman the Monkey shaped God to be the same as "faith" in the Zombified human sacrificed ill begotten son of a celestial slave mongering Voodoo Rituals prescribing and witches proscribing ethnic cleansing racist bigoted mass murderer?

Come on... do not evade and answer honestly... please!!!

 

[jeremyp]

Well sure, there may not be any real beers in your fridge. But what about imaginary beers, huh? Huh???

"It is not possible to prove or disprove imaginary beers in the fridge by any rational process."

Imagine the greatest of all possible beers. A beer that exists is greater than an imaginary beer that doesn’t exist.

Therefore the beer exists.

Unassailable logic.

 

[Dave Rogers]

"You can't believe in God, it's just a made up story."
"It's likely we are not alone in the Universe."

One of these beliefs is exactly like the other...

Nope. Apply Occam's razor. Believing in God requires the postulate that there is an entirely unknown class of entity, of which we have never directly observed a single one, with abilities and characteristics of a type we have never observed, despite having extensively searched for any such observations. Believing in the possibility of life on other planets requires the postulate that known laws of nature, acting in a wide range of circumstances, may in similar instances produce similar results. There is very little, if any, similarity between the two positions.

Dave

 

[GDon]

There seems to be a disconnect regarding what is acceptable that as of yet is unproven and what is not acceptable that is yet unproven. Maybe it's just my sense of humor, but to me that is hilarious.

"You can't believe in God, it's just a made up story."
"It's likely we are not alone in the Universe."

One of these beliefs is exactly like the other...

In fairness, the latter can have a mathematical likelihood, just based on the sheer number of detectable and inferred planets, especially in the Goldilocks Zone. The former not so much.

There is the "fine-tuning" argument, which overlaps (in a way) with aliens possibly existing somewhere. Both rely on the properties of physics to provide credibility.

Dawkins calls the fine-tuning argument as a good argument for deism, though not necessarily for God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apWOkC7krfQ