Split Thread Atheism and lack of belief in the afterlife

[bruto]

And again imagine the absurdity if we did this in any other topic.

"Is there beer in the fridge?"
"Let me check.. nope on beer."
"Wait... what do you mean no beer?"
"Well I looked in the fridge and there's no beer."
"Okay but are you saying you believe there is no beer or that you don't believe there is any beer?"
"I'm not saying either and those statements mean the same thing."
"Did you make up new types of beer with new characteristics and look for those?"
"Why would I do that?"
"What is your proof that there isn't any beer in the fridge?"
"What does that even mean? There's no beer. You go look if you don't believe me."
"No you made the claim that there's no beer, you have the burden of proof."
"Burden of proof on what? It's not a 'claim.' There's no beer because there is no beer. This isn't complicated."
"I have this X and Y axis chart would you please indicate where on the belief/knowledge and certainty axis your opinion sits at?
".... what?"
"We'll circle back to that. What do you hate beer? Are you just rebelling?"
"I don't... what is this?"
"Why is being right about their being beer in the fridge so important to you?"
"It's not important, you asked."
"Why can't we just compromise and say there is beer in the fridge for me and not beer in the fridge for you?"
"Because that's not how reality works."
"You're getting very emotional."

I get your point, but would suggest that although the end result is, indeed, that there is no beer in the fridge, no matter how that comes to be or how you figure it out, and thus the "beer in the fridge" question is complete; if you are discussing, for example, the shopping behavior of a person, or perhaps that person's relation to alcohol, there really is a difference in how and why that condition came about.

I quite suspect that Psion10's position on this question is not really this, but though I almost always disagree with him on almost everything, I have found myself sort of taking his side, because I do think that how you describe a thing depends on what you're talking about and why, even if on another level the thing ends up the same.

On the other hand, my other problem with the beer in the fridge analogy is that, with regard to atheism and the afterlife, I think the real answer is more likely to be that it doesn't matter what you mean by beer if there isn't a fridge at all.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I get your point, but would suggest that although the end result is, indeed, that there is no beer in the fridge, no matter how that comes to be or how you figure it out, and thus the "beer in the fridge" question is complete; if you are discussing, for example, the shopping behavior of a person, or perhaps that person's relation to alcohol, there really is a difference in how and why that condition came about.

I quite suspect that Psion10's position on this question is not really this, but though I almost always disagree with him on almost everything, I have found myself sort of taking his side, because I do think that how you describe a thing depends on what you're talking about and why, even if on another level the thing ends up the same.

On the other hand, my other problem with the beer in the fridge analogy is that, with regard to atheism and the afterlife, I think the real answer is more likely to be that it doesn't matter what you mean by beer if there isn't a fridge at all.

1. If Psion10s wants to ever stop speaking in riddles and just clearly GET TO THE POINT he can do so. Nobody can do it for him. And after having the exact same conversation with him a dozen times we all know that's not going to happen.

2. WHY is god an "unanswered" question and "beer in my fridge?" not? We keep coming back to this. Why is god special? "God is special because we haven't defined him yet" is a poor answer. I don't even know what the "there is no fridge at all" metaphor means.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

...
..
.

What?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

"Because that's not how reality works."

Well sure, there may not be any real beers in your fridge. But what about imaginary beers, huh? Huh???

"It is not possible to prove or disprove imaginary beers in the fridge by any rational process."

 

[Leumas]

I get your point, but would suggest that although the end result is, indeed, that there is no beer in the fridge, no matter how that comes to be or how you figure it out, and thus the "beer in the fridge" question is complete; if you are discussing, for example, the shopping behavior of a person, or perhaps that person's relation to alcohol, there really is a difference in how and why that condition came about.

I quite suspect that Psion10's position on this question is not really this, but though I almost always disagree with him on almost everything, I have found myself sort of taking his side, because I do think that how you describe a thing depends on what you're talking about and why, even if on another level the thing ends up the same.

On the other hand, my other problem with the beer in the fridge analogy is that, with regard to atheism and the afterlife, I think the real answer is more likely to be that it doesn't matter what you mean by beer if there isn't a fridge at all.

Fabulous casuistry... wow...

 

[Leumas]

And again imagine the absurdity if we did this in any other topic.

"Is there beer in the fridge?"
"Let me check.. nope on beer."
"Wait... what do you mean no beer?"
"Well I looked in the fridge and there's no beer."
"Okay but are you saying you believe there is no beer or that you don't believe there is any beer?"
"I'm not saying either and those statements mean the same thing."
"Did you make up new types of beer with new characteristics and look for those?"
"Why would I do that?"
"What is your proof that there isn't any beer in the fridge?"
"What does that even mean? There's no beer. You go look if you don't believe me."
"No you made the claim that there's no beer, you have the burden of proof."
"Burden of proof on what? It's not a 'claim.' There's no beer because there is no beer. This isn't complicated."
"I have this X and Y axis chart would you please indicate where on the belief/knowledge and certainty axis your opinion sits at?
".... what?"
"We'll circle back to that. What do you hate beer? Are you just rebelling?"
"I don't... what is this?"
"Why is being right about their being beer in the fridge so important to you?"
"It's not important, you asked."
"Why can't we just compromise and say there is beer in the fridge for me and not beer in the fridge for you?"
"Because that's not how reality works."
"You're getting very emotional."

Perfectly well said!!!

 

[Leumas]

Yet another fail.

Yes... yours... for failing to explain what is it that you are talking about...

...the concept of an afterlife is closely intertwined with the concept of gods, I fail to see how ...

Can you describe those concepts?
....

 

[Steve]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

Why do you find that funny?

 

[psionl0]

You have a point? Please enlighten us.

The point was that you can't apply conclusions drawn from something that is known to be real to something that is not known to be real.

But you are right. If one has no experience or knowledge of any god or afterlife then there is no reason to believe that they are real. Whether one positively declares that they don't exist or leaves it at "I don't know" is the sticking point on what an atheist is.

 

[Leumas]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

Do you think YHWH is more or less likely to be real than Quetzalcoatl or Ganesh or Unkulunkulu or Altjira or Zeus or Odin or or or or or????

Why?

Which of the millions of godssssssss that humanity has IMAGINED and millions of fabulous WOO WOO that humanity has fabricated do you think is more likely than an Earth-like Planet existing on one of the BILLIONS of stars in this galaxy which is one of the BILLIONS of galaxies in this corner of the universe which is one of the BILLIONS of corners in the universe????

And we have evidence of biological things existing on planets which support it... we have Zilch... nill... nada... Zero... evidence for WOO WOO existing.

And... by the way... gods are WOO WOO... just like Leprechauns and Elves and Gnomes.

 

[ynot]

All atheists I know do believe in an afterlife, we call it death.

If there was another form of life after this life it would be silly to call it afterlife, more appropriate to call it lifeafterlife or afterlifelife.

 

[acbytesla]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

Why do you find that funny?

This is so weird. I absolutely don't believe in God. And I absolutely think it is probable that there is life elsewhere in the Universe. It's a matter of statistics. There are trillions of billions of stars and probably a multiple of that total in planets. Unlike God, there is nothing magical. It is an argument based on the interaction of chemical elements.

I find it difficult to believe in a mystical being that talked the universe and life into existence.
But who knows. Maybe there is one. What I do believe is crap is the idea that ANY human has any idea what that being thinks or wants. If there is one.

That Chris believes in fairy tales is ok by me. But the moment he or others presumes to tell the world that we must live our lives by that fairy tale, I want to tell them all to GO TO HELL!

 

[Leumas]

The point was that you can't apply conclusions drawn from something that is known to be real to something that is not known to be real.

Why not?

Can't one apply physics to evaluate claims about building-sized gorillas not being possible??? Or laser shooting eyes or Gold Pots under rainbows or or or or ????

But you are right. If one has no experience or knowledge of any god or afterlife then there is no reason to believe that they are real. Whether one positively declares that they don't exist or leaves it at "I don't know" is the sticking point on what an atheist is.

I think I have just realized one of the main problems... you think the hypothesis "god(s) exist" has the same statistical weight as the hypothesis that "gods do not exist".

Well this is totally a mistake.

The hypothesis "gods do not exist" has been bolstered by every bit of gleaned REALITY throughout the conscious existence of humanity... and it is the NULL HYPOTHESIS.

The hypothesis "gods do exist" has been riven asunder by every bit of gleaned REALITY throughout the conscious existence of humanity.

So... no... the probability of any god existing has been for the last 5,000,000 Years of human existence been PROVEN to be Zero.... but what is even more clinching... is that the probability of any god NOT existing has been bolstered by all of REALITY.

 

[theprestige]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

It helps that nobody is telling me that notional space aliens are a moral force in the universe, and I need to behave myself if I want to earn their approval in whatever the **** afterlife some delusional clown imagines they supervise.

 

[acbytesla]

I think I have just realized one of the main problems... you think the hypothesis "god(s) exist" has the same statistical weight as the hypothesis that "gods do not exist".

Well this is totally a mistake.

The hypothesis "gods do not exist" has been bolstered by every bit of gleaned REALITY throughout the conscious existence of humanity... and it is the NULL HYPOTHESIS.

The hypothesis "gods do exist" has been riven asunder by every bit of gleaned REALITY throughout the conscious existence of humanity.

So... no... the probability of any god existing has been for the last 5,000,000 Years of human existence been PROVEN to be Zero.... but what is even more clinching... is that the probability of any god NOT existing has been bolstered by all of REALITY.

EXACTLY!

I cannot say conclusively that there isn't a God. But I can say conclusively there isn't any good reason to believe there is a God. Therefore I don't believe.

I hate the term atheist. I mean there isn't a word for not believing in every other dumb thing. Why should there be one for not believing in this silly fantasy?

But I will say this. Not believing is not the same as believing in non-existence.

 

[arthwollipot]

Just want to butt in here to point out that we've already been over the dragon in the garage thing, and quite extensively.

 

[pzkpfw]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

We exist, and as we learn more and more we can see we are emergent from the Universe. Given how big the Universe is, yes we don't have proof of aliens, but it is as least possible that we were not the only place where life emerged.

That's VERY different to belief that some God (where did it come from?) had the power to make the whole Universe, and stick us somewhere in it.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

Humans are social animals, and we have a biological need to connect with others. In modern times the World has become a small place, so we are looking further afield for new people to meet. This may not be rational, but emotions never are.

Projects like SETI make me a little sad, but no more so than all the people lining up to buy lottery tickets. So long as it's just a hobby I can't complain (my own hobbies have little value outside of entertainment). And who knows, they might even stumble onto something useful while indugling in their fantasy.

You may find it 'funny' that even 'rationalists' need some fantasy in their lives, but that's our nature. A bit of fantasy makes life more enjoyable. However too much can be bad for the individual and everyone. Right now the majority of the population believes the fantasy that global warming isn't that big a deal and we won't need to do much about it. I would be happy if those people believed in a God if it got them to take this issue more seriously.

Unfortunately with religion it is just as likely to go the other way - once people have swallowed one outrageous lie they are more likely to be sucked in by others - some of which are harmful. One hopes that people who have come to realize that God is fantasy will be more realistic about other things too.

But some things matter more than others. Believing in the 'possibility' of aliens is less of a worry than believing they are visiting Earth and causing mischief, or that they will bring us much-needed advanced technology to solve our problems. The Universe is a big place. The idea that there is intelligent life out there is not ridiculous - after all we already have over 8 billion examples on our own planet. The only fantasy is that it makes any difference to how we should live our own lives.

 

[Chanakya]

It's funny how many of the same individuals that ridicule belief in God will readily accept we may not be alone in the Universe when it comes to belief in aliens.

Are there any sequel posts planned, or is this performance, of this performer, limited to just lobbing in this one single irrelevancy; while the other performer, with the longer part, keeps pretending his "sticking point" hasn't already been resolved by pointing out that either definition of atheism applies?