Merged What the quran really says.

[MarkCorrigan]

I was responding to propaganda posted by them promoting Putin. I sent them a photo of Martin Luther King, on which I typed his quote.
"We must learn to live together as brothers, or perish together as fools"

Unless you're a Muslim, right?

 

[Darat]

I know there are academic discussions about the history of verses, and of course there are the standard issues of all translated works (and the differences within the different denominations) but I don't get the overall premise of the thread the "What the quran really says."

Is there any major dispute about what the text of the Quran?

 

[Scorpion]

I know there are academic discussions about the history of verses, and of course there are the standard issues of all translated works (and the differences within the different denominations) but I don't get the overall premise of the thread the "What the quran really says."

Is there any major dispute about what the text of the Quran?

Well, in the opening post I explain that the Quran says the sun orbits the earth. What it actually says is the sun and the moon each swim in an orbit.
Imams lie and say it means the Quran is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun has an orbit in the galaxy. This is a lie, and I believe every Iman knows it. Muhammad says in a hadith which I quote in the opening post, that one day the sun will be sent back on its course, then it will rise in the west. But if the sun was sent back in its orbit in the galaxy it would still rise in the east. because it is the rotation of the earth which makes the sun appear to rise.

Therefore I entitled the thread "What the Quran really says"

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Yes, but the bible also says that. Why are you only criticising the Quran?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

So, like all holy books the quran is clearly written by people and reflects what is known at the day.
I agree its clearly fabricated.
I also agree that, again like all other religions, its adherents ignore all the bits they do not like and handwave away all inconsistencies between their fantasy and reality.
Now what?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

My experience of spiritualism tells me that the bible was wrong about hellfire...

You will exist in the spirit world in a perfect spirit body. It is not subject to temperature. I was told the spirit body cannot feel emotion and that is why many souls choose to reincarnate.

You were told wrong. The spirit body cannot feel temperature or emotion because it is supernatural, ie. a fantasy. It does not exist. 'Souls' cannot choose to reincarnate (at least not yet - who knows what technology might make possible in the future). When you die, the brain atrophies and your mind disintegrates until there is nothing left of 'you'. In some people - like my father - this happens well before death. No 'spirit' survives death.

Since you are completely wrong about this obvious fact, I don't trust your opinion on any other subject - especially when it also flies in the face of the facts.

The Quran says things that were appropriate for the time and place that it was written. Most people today understand that and don't make a big deal about it. A few countries are still in the grip of fundamentalism (eg. Pakistan, parts of the US) and this will not change until their culture changes. People who leave these countries generally want to get away from that.

But that doesn't mean they want to erase their cultural identity. If you try to force them to give it up there will be pushback, and that's where the trouble starts. Your intolerant attitude is not helping, it's hurting. The things you say 'Islam' will cause will be your fault for treating people as if that is what they will do - a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you had compassion and empathy you wouldn't do this. If you really cared about promoting peaceful coexistence you wouldn't do this. You are inciting hatred. You are just as bad as the people you say are bad.

But it doesn't have to be this way. Get your head out of the tabloid news and take off your blinders, and you will find that Muslims are just ordinary people like you and me.

Imams lie

So do you. "You will exist in the spirit world in a perfect spirit body". This is a flat out lie, much worse than calling the movement of the sun across the sky a 'revelation'. I mean, the Sun does actually move across the sky so it's at least somewhat true. Your lie is a total fabrication, pure fantasy - and yet you boldly state it as if it were scientific fact. That makes you worse than Imams who attempt to reconcile their creed with science. You make a mockery of it.

 

[Pixel42]

The ability of woo believers to understand why every type of woo other than theirs is indeed woo, whilst being incapable of understanding the identical reasoning demonstrating that the same is true of their own arbitrarily chosen beliefs, never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Mashuna]

The ability of woo believers to understand why every type of woo other than theirs is indeed woo, whilst being incapable of understanding the identical reasoning demonstrating that the same is true of their own arbitrarily chosen beliefs, never ceases to amaze me.

Agreed. But then I'm a typical Libra in that regard.

 

[Samson]

U

The ability of woo believers to understand why every type of woo other than theirs is indeed woo, whilst being incapable of understanding the identical reasoning demonstrating that the same is true of their own arbitrarily chosen beliefs, never ceases to amaze me.

I think Scorpion is stating the obvious.
In world current, only Islam of the mass religions could do 9 11, London, Bali, Salman Rushdie Iran and Afghanistan, the bone saw guys in Saudi, and the youtube beheadings.
These are such varied and base crimes against people any counter argument needs equivalent sins to berate.

 

[sackett]

The ability of woo believers to understand why every type of woo other than theirs is indeed woo, whilst being incapable of understanding the identical reasoning demonstrating that the same is true of their own arbitrarily chosen beliefs, never ceases to amaze me.

Maybe not all wooists. It's possible (I think, I hope) for a mentally sound person to entertain daffball notions and mistake them for truth, i.e., to believe. Ignorance makes this possible, and an immature tendency toward credulity. People with romantic imaginations take pleasure in supposing things, and enjoy feeling that It's All Twoo! (I used to be that way myself, and I don't like remembering my younger mind. But at least I got over it. Hope i did anyway.)

The above is all old stuff here. So far so good. Now consider the other kind of wooist, who is not of sound mind. He can't detect, he can't imagine, the illogicality of his beliefs. He's a crank that only winds tighter. When we try to reason with him, we're throwing water in the sea.

Quixote is only a hero as long as he's crazy himself.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

U
I think Scorpion is stating the obvious.
In world current, only Islam of the mass religions could do 9 11, London, Bali, Salman Rushdie Iran and Afghanistan, the bone saw guys in Saudi, and the youtube beheadings.
These are such varied and base crimes against people any counter argument needs equivalent sins to berate.

You left out Russia invading Ukraine. But Christians committing 'varied and base' crimes against other Christians don't count, right?

9/11 was done by a tiny group of radicals 21 years ago, which hardly qualifies as 'current'. Since then we have had a variety of acts of terror perpetrated against Muslims and others by Christians, but we always dismiss them as just being a few lone nutcases even though they were incited by neo-Nazis and other fundamentalist Christian groups. And that's not counting the 130,000 Americans who went over to the Middle East to kill Muslims during the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003, nor the troops in Afghanistan who kept that war going until 2014 and are largely responsible for the current strife there.

As to what relevance the novelty factor has, aside from puerile interest it's of no consequence - innocent people died just the same - ~200,000 in Iraq alone as a result of Bush's 'crusade'. Among the 'varied' methods the US used to kill them was an estimated 1.8 to 2 million cluster bombs, many of which hung around to maim and kill children years later.

I reckon that more than qualifies as 'equivalent sins to berate'.

 

[Samson]

You left out Russia invading Ukraine. But Christians committing 'varied and base' crimes against other Christians don't count, right?

9/11 was done by a tiny group of radicals 21 years ago, which hardly qualifies as 'current'. Since then we have had a variety of acts of terror perpetrated against Muslims and others by Christians, but we always dismiss them as just being a few lone nutcases even though they were incited by neo-Nazis and other fundamentalist Christian groups. And that's not counting the 130,000 Americans who went over to the Middle East to kill Muslims during the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003, nor the troops in Afghanistan who kept that war going until 2014 and are largely responsible for the current strife there.

As to what relevance the novelty factor has, aside from puerile interest it's of no consequence - innocent people died just the same - ~200,000 in Iraq alone as a result of Bush's 'crusade'. Among the 'varied' methods the US used to kill them was an estimated 1.8 to 2 million cluster bombs, many of which hung around to maim and kill children years later.

I reckon that more than qualifies as 'equivalent sins to berate'.

Honest attempt but fail.
And do you wish to get trapped in America or one of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Honest attempt but fail.

You have yet to even make an attempt to explain how Wollery misrepresented Scorpion. Care to give that a go?

And do you wish to get trapped in America or one of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran?

I wouldn't like to be trapped in Canada.

There are quite a few other Muslim majority countries than those you named, just so you're made aware. If you have to pick a handful of countries that have been destabilized by revolution, or dominated by totalitarian regimes supported by outside interests, you're actually supporting my earlier point regarding the role of insecurity and violence in the growth of radicalism.

Maybe you'd like to look up Radovan Karadžić before you lecture about the lack of terrorism against Muslims by Christians.

 

[Samson]

You have yet to even make an attempt to explain how Wollery misrepresented Scorpion. Care to give that a go?


I wouldn't like to be trapped in Canada.

There are quite a few other Muslim majority countries than those you named, just so you're made aware. If you have to pick a handful of countries that have been destabilized by revolution, or dominated by totalitarian regimes supported by outside interests, you're actually supporting my earlier point regarding the role of insecurity and violence in the growth of radicalism.

Maybe you'd like to look up Radovan Karadžić before you lecture about the lack of terrorism against Muslims by Christians.

Not lecturing, but deeply opposed to obvious lies employed in bringing up children.
Children become political leaders and oppressors of whom they choose, in the case of Islam it is women.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Children become political leaders and oppressors of whom they choose, in the case of Islam it is women.

Except in New Zealand, where girls grow up to be leaders and oppress men, right?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Honest attempt but fail.
And do you wish to get trapped in America or one of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran?

There are places in America where I wouldn't want to be trapped. Also China, which is atheist, and Russia which is Christian. North Korea would be no picnic either, despite having almost zero Muslims. In fact there are a fair number of Muslim-free hellholes that I wouldn't want to live in under any conditions.

Strangely however, some countries with high Muslim populations are favored by ex-pats, including the UAE (95% Muslim), Bahrain (99.8% Muslim), and Singapore (16% Muslim).

 

[Foster Zygote]

Not lecturing, but deeply opposed to obvious lies employed in bringing up children.
Children become political leaders and oppressors of whom they choose, in the case of Islam it is women.

So Christianity is less false than Islam?

Several women have been elected as heads of government in Muslim majority countries. Still waiting on that here in the Christian U.S. And the RCC still hasn't had a woman bishop or cardinal, let alone a pope.

By the way, thanks for admitting, through your lack of response, that you cannot show how Wollery supposedly misrepresented Scorpion.

 

[catsmate]

Except in New Zealand, where girls grow up to be leaders and oppress men, right?

 

[Hans]

There are places in America where I wouldn't want to be trapped. Also China, which is atheist, and Russia which is Christian. North Korea would be no picnic either, despite having almost zero Muslims. In fact there are a fair number of Muslim-free hellholes that I wouldn't want to live in under any conditions.

Strangely however, some countries with high Muslim populations are favored by ex-pats, including the UAE (95% Muslim), Bahrain (99.8% Muslim), and Singapore (16% Muslim).

I worked in the Middle-East off and on from 1983 to 2011. Saudi, UAE and Bahrain, Saudi was like a minimum security prison but the other two were okay. Just stay out of politics, don't attack Islam and mute your own beliefs a tad.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

U
I think Scorpion is stating the obvious.
In world current, only Islam of the mass religions could do 9 11, London, Bali, Salman Rushdie Iran and Afghanistan, the bone saw guys in Saudi, and the youtube beheadings.
These are such varied and base crimes against people any counter argument needs equivalent sins to berate.

Never heard of the Lord's resistance army or the UVF, I take it? Or even the Rwandan genocide. All of the horrors I refer to with those names were perpetrated by explicitly christian groups using explicitly christian messaging to commit atrocities on other groups (usually other christians).