Merged What the quran really says.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

You keep falling in the trap of assuming ALL Muslims read the Quran in EXACTLY the same way and will behave in a single way.

Yes, there have been Muslims abusing the words in the Quran to perform terrorist acts. But the vast majority do no.

In the same way that most Christians are capable of not committing terrorist acts, even though the IRA uses to bible to justify it's acts of terror.

If your paranoia about how Muslims read their holy book is right the world would have been fighting wave upon wave of suicide attackers for 1400 years. This is not the case.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Do try and realize nearly two billion people in the world think Muhammad received a direct message from God.

And 2.38 billion people think that Jesus is God.

Are you really such an ignorant bigot that you're going to insist on labeling all Muslims as fundamentalist extremists, while pretending that Christianity's holy texts are any less riddled with vile verses? One of my grandmothers was virulently racist. When she'd comment on a news story about some white person committing a crime, it was always because that person was just a bad individual. But whenever a story was about a black person who'd committed a crime, it was always because "that's just how they are".

Churchill and Hitler have had their war and soon there will be no one left alive who remembers it. It will just be a lesson in history books.

What a relief that racism and fascism are things of the past. We certainly don't need to worry about that anymore.

They think they serve God when they crash planes into buildings and blow up busses and trains. Do you think they do ? If not you are on my side.

No, I'm not on your side, because you clearly have a very different concept of "they". You use "they" the same way my racist grandmother did.

 

[wollery]

Scorpion, do you actually know any Muslims?

I seriously doubt that you do, at least not as anything more than vague acquaintances.

How often do you interact with any Muslims?

I don't expect that it's very often, and probably far more often than you would like.

I know lots of Muslims, I interact with them on a daily basis, and have done for many years. I grew up with Muslim friends. My son has Muslim friends. None of them are the froth spitting, war-mongering, Jew and Christian hating demonic fiends you would make them out to be.

In fact almost all of the Muslims I know are kind, thoughtful and generous, and the few that aren't are no worse than anyone else I know, they're just people.

They invite me into their homes, offer me food and hospitality, entrust me with their children's education, ask my advice, enquire after my family....

In other words, they're just ordinary people, no different in the ways that truly matter from you or I, going about their lives just the same as any other people.

 

[Samson]

Scorpion, do you actually know any Muslims?

I seriously doubt that you do, at least not as anything more than vague acquaintances.

How often do you interact with any Muslims?

I don't expect that it's very often, and probably far more often than you would like.

I know lots of Muslims, I interact with them on a daily basis, and have done for many years. I grew up with Muslim friends. My son has Muslim friends. None of them are the froth spitting, war-mongering, Jew and Christian hating demonic fiends you would make them out to be.

In fact almost all of the Muslims I know are kind, thoughtful and generous, and the few that aren't are no worse than anyone else I know, they're just people.

They invite me into their homes, offer me food and hospitality, entrust me with their children's education, ask my advice, enquire after my family....

In other words, they're just ordinary people, no different in the ways that truly matter from you or I, going about their lives just the same as any other people.

Yes exactly, and the religion adds nothing.

 

[Scorpion]

Scorpion, do you actually know any Muslims?

I seriously doubt that you do, at least not as anything more than vague acquaintances.

How often do you interact with any Muslims?

I don't expect that it's very often, and probably far more often than you would like.

I know lots of Muslims, I interact with them on a daily basis, and have done for many years. I grew up with Muslim friends. My son has Muslim friends. None of them are the froth spitting, war-mongering, Jew and Christian hating demonic fiends you would make them out to be.

In fact almost all of the Muslims I know are kind, thoughtful and generous, and the few that aren't are no worse than anyone else I know, they're just people.

They invite me into their homes, offer me food and hospitality, entrust me with their children's education, ask my advice, enquire after my family....

In other words, they're just ordinary people, no different in the ways that truly matter from you or I, going about their lives just the same as any other people.

Your Muslim friends may not have read the following verse in the Quran.

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that , in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them." Quran 3.28

 

[wollery]

Your Muslim friends may not have read the following verse in the Quran.

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that , in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them." Quran 3.28

Which kind of makes everyone else’s point, and rather succinctly and eloquently puts the lie to your position.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Your Muslim friends may not have read the following verse in the Quran.

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that , in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them." Quran 3.28

Or, going out on a limb here, they, like all followers of all religions everywhere at every point in time, are very good at selectively reading their holy book and only looking at the bits they like and that reinforce their own personal views.

So yes, evil people can find the horrible bits in their personal books to support their views, while those that are not evil tend to ignore those bits.

Pretty much the same way you seem to ignore everything in the Quran that is not vile and all those Muslims that are kind, generous or even just unremarkable people living their lives and focus only on a select few, admittedly, horrible people.

 

[Scorpion]

You keep falling in the trap of assuming ALL Muslims read the Quran in EXACTLY the same way and will behave in a single way.

Have you seen the news about the people who were killed by mobs for what were regarded as blasphemous acts like defacing a Quran? In face there are people on death row for blasphemy in Pakistan. I am sure lots of Muslims are nice to your face, but they are actually taught unbelievers are cursed by God.

Yes, there have been Muslims abusing the words in the Quran to perform terrorist acts. But the vast majority do no.

The Muslims who kill infidels are not abusing the words of the Quran, they are obeying them.

If your paranoia about how Muslims read their holy book is right the world would have been fighting wave upon wave of suicide attackers for 1400 years. This is not the case.

I am not big on history but as far as I can see Muslims have been killing people, and taking over their countries since the crusades.

 

[Scorpion]

Or, going out on a limb here, they, like all followers of all religions everywhere at every point in time, are very good at selectively reading their holy book and only looking at the bits they like and that reinforce their own personal views.

So yes, evil people can find the horrible bits in their personal books to support their views, while those that are not evil tend to ignore those bits.

Pretty much the same way you seem to ignore everything in the Quran that is not vile and all those Muslims that are kind, generous or even just unremarkable people living their lives and focus only on a select few, admittedly, horrible people.

The nice bits in the Quran are just Muhammad's way of catching more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Do try and realize nearly two billion people in the world think Muhammad received a direct message from God. They read his words that God curses unbelievers in Muhammad and that God will burn the unbelievers in hellfire for all eternity.

Christians tell me the same thing. But I'm not worried because the supernatural doesn't exist and cannot do anything to me, especially after death (when this is supposed to happen according to both the Bible and the Quran).

Actually I would be pleasantly surprised to find that I still 'existed' after death, at least initially. But after a while of being a disembodied spirit that cannot interact with the real world I would probably welcome the Second Death. And a nice warm fire might be good too - I hear it's really cold in the spirit world.

Islam is not a benign religion to comfort dusty Arabs. The Quran is a war manual. War leaders did not start a religion based on evil lies about God. But Muhammad did. We are facing the consequences of his lies now

What are these 'consequences' you speak of?

Churchill and Hitler have had their war and soon there will be no one left alive who remembers it. It will just be a lesson in history books. But the tribal hate of unbelievers will still go on in the minds and hearts of many Muslims, until they are made to realize they follow a false prophet.

Unfortunately I fear you are only half right. Future generations will forget about the horrors of WWII, and sooner or later will start another even worse one (probably with more nukes this time). We already see the seeds of this growing as the far right takes back control. The only difference between now and the days of Nazi Germany is that the 'out' group is now Muslims instead of Jews. And the Ultra-right's methods of 'making them realize it' will probably be similar.

You should read some more history books. Hitler got a lot of his ideas from 'scientific' racists in the US, and support from many influential bigots in the UK and elsewhere. Now that crap is coming back in vogue, and you are a part of it. As Churchill said - "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it".

They think they serve God when they crash planes into buildings and blow up busses and trains. Do you think they do ? If not you are on my side.

And FBI buildings and clinics and Mosques and summer camps too. Oh wait...

 

[Samson]

Which kind of makes everyone else’s point, and rather succinctly and eloquently puts the lie to your position.

You completely misrepresent Scorpion.
Why?

 

[Samson]

Or, going out on a limb here, they, like all followers of all religions everywhere at every point in time, are very good at selectively reading their holy book and only looking at the bits they like and that reinforce their own personal views.

So yes, evil people can find the horrible bits in their personal books to support their views, while those that are not evil tend to ignore those bits.

Pretty much the same way you seem to ignore everything in the Quran that is not vile and all those Muslims that are kind, generous or even just unremarkable people living their lives and focus only on a select few, admittedly, horrible people.

If there are vile bits in the manual destroy it.
Start again with common sense and ethics.

 

[Scorpion]

Christians tell me the same thing. But I'm not worried because the supernatural doesn't exist and cannot do anything to me, especially after death (when this is supposed to happen according to both the Bible and the Quran).

My experience of spiritualism tells me that the bible was wrong about hellfire
and the bible scholars probably stole the idea of the lake of fire from the Egyptian book of the dead. Muhammad then, clearly stole the idea of scaring people with hellfire from the bible. Except that the bible does not say much about it, but Muhammad lays on the tortures of hell and embellished them with a relish that only a very cruel man would deliberately inflict on other peoples minds.

Actually I would be pleasantly surprised to find that I still 'existed' after death, at least initially. But after a while of being a disembodied spirit that cannot interact with the real world I would probably welcome the Second Death. And a nice warm fire might be good too - I hear it's really cold in the spirit world.

You will exist in the spirit world in a perfect spirit body. It is not subject to temperature. I was told the spirit body cannot feel emotion and that is why many souls choose to reincarnate.

What are these 'consequences' you speak of?

The World Trade center going down and the London bombings, are what we can expect more of in the future.

You should read some more history books. Hitler got a lot of his ideas from 'scientific' racists in the US, and support from many influential bigots in the UK and elsewhere. Now that crap is coming back in vogue, and you are a part of it. As Churchill said - "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it".

Churchill also said "Islam is a dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"

And yes, I am a part of it. I recently declared psychological war on the government of Pakistan until they release all the people they hold on death row for blasphemy. Twitter allowed me to get away with that but they have deleted everything I write to the Russians telling them Putin is a paranoid nutcase, and they should get rid of him before he kills us all.

See My Twitter account where I am Dajjal, @dajjal_dd

 

[Scorpion]

As the saying goes "All models are wrong, but some are useful". From the point of view of a person going about their normal business on the Earth, thinking of the Sun as rising in the east and setting in the west, then going around the 'bottom' during the night, is more intuitive than imagining the Earth rotating as it goes around the Sun. For what the Quran was describing (how the Sun moved through the sky during each day) it was more useful. The fact that they knew no different is irrelevant.

Your comment on my opening post on this thread seems to miss the point. The Quran is supposed to be the perfect word of God dictated to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.
The point of my opening post was that the hadith I quoted clearly stated the sun is orbiting the earth. Because it says if the sun was sent back on its course it would rise in the west. This hadith is presumed to be the actual words of Muhammad. And the point is that if the sun was sent back in its orbit of the galaxy, it would still rise in the west. because it is the rotation of the earth which makes the sun rise. So all Imams in the entire Muslim world must be conspiring together to lie when they say the Quran means the sun orbits the galaxy.

The Imams can never ever admit the Quran says the sun orbits the earth.

BECAUSE THAT WOULD PROVE IT IS NOT FROM GOD.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

If there are vile bits in the manual destroy it.
Start again with common sense and ethics.

I agree there, but that applies to all religion, not just the Quran.

 

[wollery]

You completely misrepresent Scorpion.
Why?

In what way have I misrepresented his position?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Yes exactly, and the religion adds nothing.

Again, no one here has claimed that Islam is more correct, or more morally advanced than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etcetera.

Scorpion is arguing that the people in the next village over are all bad because some of them put sugar on their porridge, while willfully ignoring, or hand-waving away, all reports that some of the people in his village do exactly the same.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Your Muslim friends may not have read the following verse in the Quran.

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that , in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them." Quran 3.28

I personally know Christians who were surprised to learn that their holy book says that they can beat their slaves because they are, after all, their property, or that it tells them to kill their daughters if they catch them having sex with their boyfriend. Many more simply skip over those sorts of verses as quickly as they can so they only have to make a minimal effort to sweep them under the rug.

Do you yourself make similar cherry picking rationalizations when comparing the Bible and the Quran? Do you worry that some Jews are going to conquer your town and sell you into slavery? Do you worry that they're going to start stoning their young daughters to death in your local park for the "crime" of choosing their own sexual partners? I mean it's right there in their holy book, so why aren't you worried?

 

[Foster Zygote]

You completely misrepresent Scorpion.
Why?

How has Wollery misrepresented Scorpion? Please be specific.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I agree there, but that applies to all religion, not just the Quran.

Yeah, there's this guy on the internet pushing his own spiritualism in which a little girl who was raped and murdered had to have done something to deserve that horror.


I have to admit I find it amusing that the same reasoning would have us conclude that Scorpion must have done something to deserve being "overrun by terrorists".