Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Nick Terry]

Allegedly - and I'm in contact with three people (at least) who have seen these - there is discussion of deliberately using the trans issue to force longstanding activists out of the party in disgust so that they could reduce demand for independence and so keep their cushy jobs indefinitely.

Cock-up as conspiracy?

 

[sarge]

This thread is moderated. Posts will require approval before they appear.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: sarge

 

[TomB]

Someone has just won a sex discrimination case here because the mixed-sex toilets at her work forced her to walk past men using urinals to get to the cubicles.
The Barbican theatre complex went woke and changed its toilets to mixed-sex, and there has been such an outcry that they're contemplating changing it all back again.

This is kind of a disingenuous point, I think.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but I don't think most of the people advocating for unisex toilets are suggesting merely changing the signs. I think they are advocating for a change in design. Such would probably not include a common space where one could walk past men using urinals to get to stalls. A unisex design may not include urinals at all.

I'd actually be interested to see, or at least read a description, of how unisex bathrooms are designed where Dann lives. I suspect that there are different design considerations for unisex vs. single sex bathrooms. Which is why Rolfe's post above is not evidence that unisex is bad, but rather evidence that the existing designs don't work as unisex.

A lot of bathrooms are single occupant. For example, all of the bathrooms I can think of at the local hospital, most gas station bathrooms, and most bathrooms in small to medium-sized shops. The Burger King where I sometimes eat lunch has two single occupant bathrooms. There is no reasons these can't/shouldn't be unisex. The ones in the hospital already are, for the most part.

In terms of queue wait times, unisex facilities with the same total number of units should increase wait times for men and decrease wait times as women, assuming no urinals or no urinal only spots. (I would design such facilities without urinals.)

 

[Francesca R]

I absolutely believe that EVERY MALE who enters a female only space is a predator under all circumstances.

Yes you do, that is established.

What [trans women] feel about their special gendered soul is completely irrelevant to me. I don't care what they identify as. I don't care about their wishes.

Thanks for confirming.

Stop forcing your language on me.

That is rejected, as above. You have made clear your views on (all) trans women, should they wish to use female settings.

(I agree with you in respect of males who are not trans women by the way. I do not believe they can have a non-predatory reason for wanting to be in a female only space. I believe trans women on the other hand can and do have non-predatory reasons for wanting to be in female settings)

The mystery is why you do not think your viewpoint is transphobic, and also why you seem to not want your position to be regarded as such.

 

[Wolrab]

Can you let me know how to distinguish a predatory man posing as a woman from a "true" trans woman?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes you do, that is established.

Thanks for confirming.

That is rejected, as above. You have made clear your views on (all) trans women, should they wish to use female settings.

(I agree with you in respect of males who are not trans women by the way. I do not believe they can have a non-predatory reason for wanting to be in a female only space. I believe trans women on the other hand can and do have non-predatory reasons for wanting to be in female settings)

The mystery is why you do not think your viewpoint is transphobic, and also why you seem to not want your position to be regarded as such.

I have two questions for you, Francesca.

First - do you regard transgender identified males as being males? Or do you regard them as something other than males? If so, can you elaborate on why you hold that view?

Second - how do you tell the difference? What is the difference between a transgender identified male and a typical male? Is this something that can be observed by an outside party without mindreading abilities?

You say that you agree with me that males who you deem to not be transgender identified are behaving in a predatory manner when they impose themselves into a single sex female space. Yet you also insist that my exclusionary view of males in their entirety is transphobic. From this I can only conclude that either you believe that transgender identified males are not males... or you believe that there is some objective verifiable distinction that would allow a typical female to tell the difference.

I disagree with either of those beliefs, and I find no rational or scientific support for them.

I invite you to elaborate on what support you do find for one or the other view, or to provide more information regarding an option I have failed to discern.

 

[Ziggurat]

Can you let me know how to distinguish a predatory man posing as a woman from a "true" trans woman?

As long as self ID holds, then there are only two possible answers:

1) You cannot.
2) Like obscenity, I'll know it when I see it.

As a matter of public policy, neither works.

 

[Francesca R]

do you regard transgender identified males as being males?

I do, yes.

What is the difference between a transgender identified male and a typical male? Is this something that can be observed by an outside party without mindreading abilities?

I do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to answer this really, and will not likely be responding to it further.

I can only conclude that either you believe that transgender identified males are not males... or you believe that there is some objective verifiable distinction that would allow a typical female to tell the difference.

Your either or is not exhaustive, it is not correct that you can only conclude one of those. I do think there is a difference between a trans woman and a cis male. In particular with respect to things like wanting to participate in female settings.

 

[theprestige]

I am not advocating politics that would allow me to do that. And I don't have to advocate uni-sex toilets. They have arrived without any advocacy whatsoever from me. I assume that you can link to a post where I am "endorsing self-ID," since you claim that I am. So far, the increasingly common uni-sex bathrooms in Denmark haven't allowed me or anybody else "to enter women's intimate spaces anytime" they wanted, which was never the purpose or the outcome of uni-sex bathrooms in my country. Are you sure that's the case in yours?




I'll leave you to your code phrases. Not interested, sorry.




If you say so. What exactly can any man do any time he wants to? Pee in a bathroom?That has been the purpose of all bathrooms I've entered so far, and it has been my purpose when entering them. Nobody has ever asked me for any kind of ID to pee, self-ID or otherwise, and I'd much prefer that it stays that way.




Since you already claimed that I endorsed self-ID, "Specifically, you're endorsing self-ID," I am surprised that you suddenly need me to say what I think about it. Didn't you already decide on my behalf what I think? It would probably be against the members agreement to write what you appear to self-ID as, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with gender.

If you don't support self-ID, then there's no need to establish unisex restrooms as a trans accommodation. The current arrangement of men's and women's restrooms works just fine.

(You might like unisex bathrooms for reasons unrelated to trans issues, but those wouldn't really be relevant to this thread.)

 

[novaphile]

Someone has just won a sex discrimination case here because the mixed-sex toilets at her work forced her to walk past men using urinals to get to the cubicles.

The Barbican theatre complex went woke and changed its toilets to mixed-sex, and there has been such an outcry that they're contemplating changing it all back again.

When we took over new premises at work, we had two adjoining industrial units. Each one had one ordinary toilet and one disabled toilet. We had no disabled staff members. There was a fair bit of private lobbying about who should have what. The idea of labelling one of each pair for men and the other for women was rejected. The staff wanted one pair for men and one for women.

Then the suggestion that the pair that opened directly into the main lab should be for the women, for convenience, was rejected because the women didn't want to have to walk into the toilet in full view of everyone. They insisted that the men would have to do that, and they wanted the pair that was accessed by a comparatively quiet corridor.

All sorts of sensitivities surfaced. You'd be surprised.

I for one, would not be surprised.

If I'm remembering correctly, Agatha Christie mentioned, in her autobiography, how she could be trapped in a toilet, because women (in her family at least) were not to be seen entering or leaving a toilet.

If a toilet opened into a busy hall, or people were standing outside the door waiting, she'd be trapped.

 

[attempt5001]

Here is an interesting scenario unfolding at a high school in Canada. Not in the news yet to my knowledge.
A trans-girl, who has recently had her gender identity officially (and legally, by Canadian law) changed to match her self-perception entered a girls bathroom while some female students were present. She proceeded to enter a stall to "do her business". The female students were very upset by this and ransacked (destroyed to the point of being unusable) the stall and bullied and intimidated the trans-girl to the point that she is now afraid to return to school (I am not sure if she was physically hurt). Here are some additional details some may feel are worth considering:
1. The females in the washroom were muslim and at least one had removed her hijab and felt highly violated by the presence of a male.
2. The trans-girl presents as very androgynous. She was known to the females in the washroom as a trans-girl, but in another setting, would be unlikely to attract attention entering a women's washroom (e.g. at a mall or theatre among strangers). She is also known as a kind, polite student.
3. Prior to the legal gender change, she used single-occupant, gender neutral washrooms, which are available in the school (not sure how many or how conveniently located).
4. The school has spoken to the females and informed them their behaviour is unacceptable under both the school policy and governing law. Some have agreed regarding the behaviour, while others remain simply angry. They have expressed feelings that their culture is not being understood or respected.
5. Other students have expressed concerns regarding feeling unsafe and/or unheard.
6. A student protest is being planned tomorrow to voice concerns about males in female spaces.
7. A student counter-protest is being planned to express support for trans-rights and recognition.
As is the case with many of these sorts of issues, I find myself able to understand and appreciate elements of both sides, while struggling with others. I am curious to see whether this will garner much media attention and how various groups will respond. Thought I would share here even though it's been a long time since I have posted anything.

 

[Samson]

Here is an interesting scenario unfolding at a high school in Canada. Not in the news yet to my knowledge.
A trans-girl, who has recently had her gender identity officially (and legally, by Canadian law) changed to match her self-perception entered a girls bathroom while some female students were present. She proceeded to enter a stall to "do her business". The female students were very upset by this and ransacked (destroyed to the point of being unusable) the stall and bullied and intimidated the trans-girl to the point that she is now afraid to return to school (I am not sure if she was physically hurt). Here are some additional details some may feel are worth considering:
1. The females in the washroom were muslim and at least one had removed her hijab and felt highly violated by the presence of a male.
2. The trans-girl presents as very androgynous. She was known to the females in the washroom as a trans-girl, but in another setting, would be unlikely to attract attention entering a women's washroom (e.g. at a mall or theatre among strangers). She is also known as a kind, polite student.
3. Prior to the legal gender change, she used single-occupant, gender neutral washrooms, which are available in the school (not sure how many or how conveniently located).
4. The school has spoken to the females and informed them their behaviour is unacceptable under both the school policy and governing law. Some have agreed regarding the behaviour, while others remain simply angry. They have expressed feelings that their culture is not being understood or respected.
5. Other students have expressed concerns regarding feeling unsafe and/or unheard.
6. A student protest is being planned tomorrow to voice concerns about males in female spaces.
7. A student counter-protest is being planned to express support for trans-rights and recognition.
As is the case with many of these sorts of issues, I find myself able to understand and appreciate elements of both sides, while struggling with others. I am curious to see whether this will garner much media attention and how various groups will respond. Thought I would share here even though it's been a long time since I have posted anything.

As always it puts language and culture against nature.

 

[Pixel42]

As is the case with many of these sorts of issues, I find myself able to understand and appreciate elements of both sides, while struggling with others.

Same here. That's what happens when the legitimate rights of one group conflict with the legitimate rights of another.

Whilst every effort can and should be made to come up with solutions that accommodate both, there are bound to be circumstances when a decision has to be made as to which group's rights should take precedence. Probably the fairest thing to do in such cases is to choose the right of the greatest number. As there are far more ciswomen with a right to safe places than there are transwomen with a right to enter them, I'm afraid that means this girl would have to be asked to continue to use the unisex toilets provided. That sucks, and I do feel for her, but it's a sacrifice she may need to make for the sake of a more general acceptance.

Of course nothing excuses the violence and intimidation to which she was subjected.

 

[LondonJohn]

It's interesting (and enlightening) to see that the UK' Defence Science & Technology Laboratory (DSTL) has chosen a transwoman to highlight for International Women & Girls in Science Day:

https://twitter.com/dstlmod/status/1624428381465878534

It ought to go without saying that this entity - and every other relevant entity - would almost always nominate ciswomen. But it's refreshing, and entirely correct, that a transwoman should also have the chance to represent their organisation in this context.

 

[Abooga]

It´s odd that you never hear of transmen getting these kinds of prices.

 

[Samson]

It's interesting (and enlightening) to see that the UK' Defence Science & Technology Laboratory (DSTL) has chosen a transwoman to highlight for International Women & Girls in Science Day:

https://twitter.com/dstlmod/status/1624428381465878534

It ought to go without saying that this entity - and every other relevant entity - would almost always nominate ciswomen. But it's refreshing, and entirely correct, that a transwoman should also have the chance to represent their organisation in this context.

I don't agree.
There are barriers to entry everywhere I look.
This is theater of the absurd, this person is vanishingly unlikely to be part of an authentic meritocracy.
Possible but highly improbable.

 

[attempt5001]

It's interesting (and enlightening) to see that the UK' Defence Science & Technology Laboratory (DSTL) has chosen a transwoman to highlight for International Women & Girls in Science Day:

https://twitter.com/dstlmod/status/1624428381465878534

It ought to go without saying that this entity - and every other relevant entity - would almost always nominate ciswomen. But it's refreshing, and entirely correct, that a transwoman should also have the chance to represent their organisation in this context.

Edited by Darat: 

Rule 12 breach removed.

I disagree that it is "entirely correct". I understand the decision to include trans-women in highlighting women, but when it comes to women in STEM, the highlight is, in part, to recognize women who have excelled despite growing up in a society and context where they likely encountered barriers against this outcome. Primarily, that their being perceived as a female would have lead to assumptions and prejudice about their role, interests, capabilities, and possibly even intelligence. If this trans-women also faced and overcame these specific barriers because she was perceived to be a girl/woman all her life, then this makes sense to me. If not, while I appreciate celebrating the resilience and success of anyone who has overcome barriers, I don't feel it's appropriate.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's interesting (and enlightening) to see that the UK' Defence Science & Technology Laboratory (DSTL) has chosen a transwoman to highlight for International Women & Girls in Science Day:

https://twitter.com/dstlmod/status/1624428381465878534

It ought to go without saying that this entity - and every other relevant entity - would almost always nominate ciswomen.

It seems to me that trans women actually get chosen disproportionately often, given how small that population is.

But it's refreshing, and entirely correct, that a transwoman should also have the chance to represent their organisation in this context.

Why?

Let's back up a step. Why do women need or deserve special recognition at all? Not everyone agrees that they do, but for those who think they do, what's the rationale?

And once you've established that rationale, why does picking a transwoman satisfy that rationale?

Edited by Darat: 

Rule 12 breach removed.

As it is, I don't see how this supports women, and it seems to exclude transmen.

 

[attempt5001]

Same here. That's what happens when the legitimate rights of one group conflict with the legitimate rights of another.

Whilst every effort can and should be made to come up with solutions that accommodate both, there are bound to be circumstances when a decision has to be made as to which group's rights should take precedence. Probably the fairest thing to do in such cases is to choose the right of the greatest number. As there are far more ciswomen with a right to safe places than there are transwomen with a right to enter them, I'm afraid that means this girl would have to be asked to continue to use the unisex toilets provided. That sucks, and I do feel for her, but it's a sacrifice she may need to make for the sake of a more general acceptance.

Of course nothing excuses the violence and intimidation to which she was subjected.

This makes sense if all rights are created equal, but I think there's also a multiplier in that equation that accounts for the impact to both parties. This is where a lot of perception, emotion, subjective experience, bias etc. come into play and complicate things enormously. I think that's where this thread has hit an impasse many times; differing feelings on what constitutes minor vs major accommodation or concession or inconvenience or risk...
In my opinion, since the metrics for measurement of "impact" are highly personal and variable, it doesn't make sense to discuss it in terms of absolutes (e.g. one perspective is "right" and another "wrong"), but rather in terms of balance. This is tricky though, when things come down to a yes, or no decision (i.e. when solutions to accommodate both, as I agree with you, is an ideal solution, can't be immediately found) and when the balance point (in terms of numbers x impact per the perception of most people) is near the middle. This is further complicated when perceptions, understanding, data, etc. are changing at a rapid pace.

 

[Ziggurat]

If this trans-women also faced and overcame these specific barriers because she was perceived to be a girl/woman all her life, then this makes sense to me. If not, while I appreciate celebrating the resilience and success of anyone who has overcome barriers, I don't feel it's appropriate.

I followed the link. This person's face still looks male. Not the "bearded trans" sort of male, but still masculine facial features. I seriously doubt they grew up being perceived as female.