Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Rolfe]

He's urging a solution that would deprive women of the women-only spaces and facilities we value so much. He would force women to do things they prefer to do with only other women around, in places where he can get up close.

Women must give up something very important to us, and for what? Because Dann thinks that will satisfy the tiny proportion of the population who are trans - and whose interests must be prioritised over the interests of women. And the great irony? This isn't what trans people - or at least transwomen - want either.

What really gets up my nose is the attitude that a man can just decide on a solution he thinks is great, which deprives half the population of something they don't want to be deprived of, to pander to a tiny minority, and then stick to his guns when this is pointed out. Uppity women, imagine thinking your wants or needs might count for anything when a man thinks he has the answer.

 

[theprestige]

I thought Dann was endorsing unisex facilities?

At the moment he's endorsing unisex facilities as a solution to a problem that vanishes the moment you renounce fiat self-ID as the standard for access to women's intimate spaces. His endorsement of self-ID is implicit in his current proposal.

I'm also pretty sure he's been more explicit in the past, and that he supports self-ID generally. If I'm wrong about this, now is a good time for him to say so.

 

[d4m10n]

Women must give up something very important to us, and for what?

I've yet to hear any women complain about the single user facilities at the hipster pizza joints, or the single user changing rooms at my gym. Possibly you're generalizing from your own concerns to half the people on the planet.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, I can't believe that tonight's BBC Newsnight didn't run with the earth-shattering book review. If I didn't have that threat of police action overhanging me (completely woke overreaction from a captured police force, of course), I'd be all over the programme's editor like a rash. I mean, I know the earthquake stuff in Turkey and Syria is fairly bad yadda-yadda-yadda.... but to carry on featuring that as the top story, rather than running with the explosive home-grown story about the literal mutilation of sweet little children on the high alter of trans woo-woo, well that's both inexplicable and unforgivable.

And still not a peep about the story anywhere on the BBC, nor on ITV news or Sky News either. By midnight the flames had started coming out of my ears again (but this time I was careful to douse just my ears in vinegar, rather than my whole head).

Still, tomorrow is another day and another battle to fight & win. And I have some exciting plans for tomorrow that I cannot wait to share with all my transphobic "gender-critical" friends across social media!

 

[Matthew Best]

I think you missed this post

 

[Ziggurat]

Well, I can't believe that tonight's BBC Newsnight didn't run with the earth-shattering book review.

You know that argument from incredulity is a fallacy, don't you?

 

[lionking]

And not a peep from you about the very well documented transgressions of the GIDS. You know, that well known, highly respected and adult organisation now rightly closed down. So how did this come about? Conspiracy?

 

[Aber]

And still not a peep about the story anywhere on the BBC, nor on ITV news or Sky News either.

Well, the FT's got it

https://www.ft.com/content/a45a9a0b-5d2f-4c4a-b2ef-6a8796ea5d10

Time to Think is an exemplary and detailed analysis of a place whose doctors, Barnes writes, most commonly describe it as “mad”. This is a powerful and disturbing book.

 

[Matthew Best]

Well, the FT's got it

https://www.ft.com/content/a45a9a0b-5d2f-4c4a-b2ef-6a8796ea5d10

Behind a paywall for me. Here's an archive link: https://archive.ph/ebvVV

I wouldn't want anyone to have that excuse for ignoring it.

 

[Samson]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-64638653

I hope everyone here is starting to take a good long look at their viewpoint.

The thread is complex, from memory a 16 year old had her breasts removed, and 3 months later returned to the surgeon and asked that they be put back on.

This sounds real world and if true, means all surgeons who might do this should risk the Jordan Petersen recommended sanction, incarceration.

 

[Rolfe]

LJ, riddle me this.

BBC Newsnight ran a series of investigative reports about the Tavistock child sterilisation service a couple of years ago, which (I think) seem to have contributed to the commissioning of the Cass report into the service - a report whose interim findings were so damning that an immediate decision was taken to close it.

The lead investigative reporter on this story then went off to do more in-depth research into the scandal, while still employed by Newsnight. I think we can say with some certainty that she would not have been able to do that and still keep her job if her managers weren't happy for her to do it.

Fast forward to 2023, and the book is ready, due to be published next week. Barnes's publisher managed to secure advance coverage in the form of extremely extensive coverage in the Sunday Times. Following that several other papers have picked up on the story, including the Telegraph and the Financial Times. We're still a week or so off the publication date though.

You are dismissing the book, apparently asserting that the contents are fabricated - on the grounds, apparently, that Barnes's employers haven't (yet) run another piece on the subject. No other reason than that.

Hannah Barnes is still employed by Newsnight. If they think she fabricated the material in her book, and that is why they haven't run another piece, why does she still have a job? Why haven't we heard about her dismissal with extreme prejudice? Why haven't we seen any coverage elsewhere criticising the content of the book and challenging Barnes's integrity?

Seriously, give over with the bad fanfic for a minute and explain this.

 

[Rolfe]

I've yet to hear any women complain about the single user facilities at the hipster pizza joints, or the single user changing rooms at my gym. Possibly you're generalizing from your own concerns to half the people on the planet.

There are certainly specific situations where these facilities work fine, usually small places, especially where there is no surge demand with everyone wanting the loo at the same time.

However, dann is pushing for every facility to be like this.

 

[Rolfe]

Dreadful how violent female sex attackers can be. Just goes to show how dangerous women are.

Lisa Jones sexually assaulted female stranger she followed in Melbourne

A Melbourne woman was walking home when another woman grabbed her and told her to “lie down and have sex with me” in a shocking attack. Lisa Jones pleaded guilty to assault with intent to commit a sexual offence and sexual assault. She was jailed for three years and three months in the County Court of Victoria on Tuesday.

Oh wait...

Jones, a transgender woman, spotted her victim and followed the other female down Lennox Street in Richmond in February this year. The 44-year-old grabbed her victim’s arm in a “strong grip”, forcing the woman to face her and then grabbed her jeans. “Why won’t you lie down and have sex with me,” Jones told her victim.

The other woman, who was on a call to her mum, started screaming and yelled out her location before Jones grabbed the phone and the call was disconnected. Jones put her hands down the woman’s pants and tried to pull down her victim’s jeans but the other woman was able to fight her off as bystanders came rushing to her aid.

 

[Rolfe]

It's been said before. Wings has the emails, I think from Craig, and it was about the first thing he said several days ago. Gavin Barrie is indicating that he's seen them too, which surprises me.

The absolutely killing irony here is that Craig is full-on TWAW and will brook no dissent, apparently because he's a friend of Chelsea Manning, and if one friend of Craig's is both a transwoman and a good person, that means any man who says he's a woman must be of unimpeachable integrity and have instant access to all women's spaces and categories.

I don't know if his head is asploding yet.

 

[dann]

Because you're advocating policies that would allow you to do exactly that. Specifically, you're endorsing self-ID, which would allow you to enter women's intimate spaces any time you wanted, simply by saying you wanted access.

I am not advocating politics that would allow me to do that. And I don't have to advocate uni-sex toilets. They have arrived without any advocacy whatsoever from me. I assume that you can link to a post where I am "endorsing self-ID," since you claim that I am. So far, the increasingly common uni-sex bathrooms in Denmark haven't allowed me or anybody else "to enter women's intimate spaces anytime" they wanted, which was never the purpose or the outcome of uni-sex bathrooms in my country. Are you sure that's the case in yours?

You'd have to use the proper code phrase, of course: "I identify as a woman today, now let me in."

I'll leave you to your code phrases. Not interested, sorry.

That's it! Any man can do it, any time they want, no questions asked. That's the self-ID access policy.

If you say so. What exactly can any man do any time he wants to? Pee in a bathroom?That has been the purpose of all bathrooms I've entered so far, and it has been my purpose when entering them. Nobody has ever asked me for any kind of ID to pee, self-ID or otherwise, and I'd much prefer that it stays that way.

If you're not actually endorsing self-ID, now is the time to say so. If you think that's a bad policy, now is the time to say so.

Since you already claimed that I endorsed self-ID, "Specifically, you're endorsing self-ID," I am surprised that you suddenly need me to say what I think about it. Didn't you already decide on my behalf what I think? It would probably be against the members agreement to write what you appear to self-ID as, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with gender.

 

[dann]

However, dann is pushing for every facility to be like this.

I'm not pushing for anything. I don't have to. It's how these 'facilities' are in my country, and I'm saying that it doesn't appear to be a problem. On the contrary.

 

[Rolfe]

Tell me about large theatres, for example, when everyone wants to go at once, so large numbers of toilets are needed. How are these arranged, and how much space do they take up?

 

[dann]

Hipsters are subset of Americans who wished they lived in Europe, what with the tight jeans and walkable cities.

We have them here, too, hipsters, but I haven't heard any of them mention where they'd prefer to live. My only problem with them is that their beards sometimes make them difficult to distinguish from Talibans, but since we don't have many of those, it's a very small problem.
I don't know much about the attitude of Danish hipsters to bathrooms, but I've seen them use them so I guess they are pro. I have yet to see a Taliban use a public bathroom, but my guess is that they wouldn't approve of uni-sex. Maybe that's why I haven't seen them ...

 

[dann]

Tell me about large theatres, for example, when everyone wants to go at once, so large numbers of toilets are needed. How are these arranged, and how much space do they take up?

I don't think I've been to a theatre for the past 20 years or so, except when I was abroad, e.g. London or New York, which doesn't help me with your question. It just occurs to me that I have no recollection of theater bathrooms in those or any other places. It just isn't one of those things that make a very big impression on me. I went there for the shows. I'll have to take notes if I ever go again.

I don't remember if the bathrooms in Danish theaters had become uni-sex or not back then, but I guess the breaks were so long that everybody got to do what they had to do. I'm pretty sure I would have remembered if I'd heard anybody complain about somebody entering their private spaces. I would also have remembered if I had been asked to self-ID in order to use the 'facilities'.

It just occurred to me that we already had a uni-sex bathroom the first time I was a teacher back in the mid-1980s. I remember that a female teacher found it problematic that the toilets weren't single-sex because one of the male teachers was gay, and she was afraid that she could get AIDS from the toilet seat. Fortunately, it was soon discovered that AIDS, like other STDs, doesn't have toilet seats as a vector.

 

[Rolfe]

Someone has just won a sex discrimination case here because the mixed-sex toilets at her work forced her to walk past men using urinals to get to the cubicles.

The Barbican theatre complex went woke and changed its toilets to mixed-sex, and there has been such an outcry that they're contemplating changing it all back again.

When we took over new premises at work, we had two adjoining industrial units. Each one had one ordinary toilet and one disabled toilet. We had no disabled staff members. There was a fair bit of private lobbying about who should have what. The idea of labelling one of each pair for men and the other for women was rejected. The staff wanted one pair for men and one for women.

Then the suggestion that the pair that opened directly into the main lab should be for the women, for convenience, was rejected because the women didn't want to have to walk into the toilet in full view of everyone. They insisted that the men would have to do that, and they wanted the pair that was accessed by a comparatively quiet corridor.

All sorts of sensitivities surfaced. You'd be surprised.