• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

Status
Not open for further replies.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-64638653

I hope everyone here is starting to take a good long look at their viewpoint.

NOBODY here has advocated for violence against transpeople. NOBODY.

Teens killing other teens is tragic whatever the reason.

Of course, you, Mr "leave it to the experts", will obey the police's guidance to not speculate on the cause until all the facts come out in court. Right?
 
As you well know, it's not the gendercrits who have form in inciting the stabbing of people.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm on d4m10n's part (ie, there is no such manifesto, so LJ's post is ridiculous).
 
The thing I find anomalous about the circumstances surrounding Brianna Ghey's murder is the reports of bullying. It was said to be horrendous.

This is very much at odds with the narrative coming out of schools all over the country, where becoming trans is frequently a way for marginalised teens to become one of the "in crowd". There have been reports of children apparently identifying as trans in response to bullying - trying to become one of a protected group, or a group that is seen as cool and edgy. Often these are children who have been bullied because they are perceived (rightly or wrongly) as being gay. Children who were not previously victims of bullying subsequently becoming victims of bullying because they are trans is not something I have seen reported. There is so much emphasis in many schools on inclusivity and acceptance and trans as being a very positive thing to be that it is surprising to encounter an example of old-school transphobic bullying.

More will probably emerge about this horrendous case, but I believe it has been reported that Brianna had only been identifying as trans for a few months. I would be very interested to know how long the bullying had been going on for. One possibility is that there was homophobic bullying of a boy who was believed to be gay, and that transition to identify as a transgirl didn't stop it. But that's just speculation.

One thing is certain, and that is that schoolchildren have been bullying other schoolchildren as long as schools have existed, and that now and again this escalates into serious violence and even killing. The sociodynamics of who is the bully and who is the bullied are often complex. I think though that it's probably fair to say that a bunch of middle-aged women lobbying for women's rights is not going to be a major component of these sociodynamics.

What is a lot more serious in my view is the number of Twitter accounts with the trans flag on them, and pictures of people posing with knives, guns and other weapons, and text glorifying violence against gender-critical women. These things are all over, as are trans accounts declaring that they are furious and that it is absolutely legitimate to "kill terfs". Throat-punching is quite a favourite. As is rape, or assault by penetration with a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire.

I have never seen anything like that from a gender-critical account.
 
I know we will never make public life fully safe but at this point surely we can entertain the suggestion of "Just making public restrooms/changing rooms/etc safer" is maybe worth trying as it might be easier then (gestures broadly) all of this.

I can't put into words exactly (I'll sit down, think on it, and try later) but there's almost a hostility to the idea that a lot of this would go away and a lot of arguments would collapse if things were safer.
I find arguments based upon "safety" to be the least compelling.
As you point out, safety(in its more limited scope of "safety from assault") is a concern in all circumstances where humans interact.
I cannot bring myself to begin to use the logic wherein one particular group of generally law-abiding individuals needs to be subject to greater suspicion from the general public than another does simply because they are members of that particular group. That direction takes one down the path of real bigotry and I find the principle behind it unsupportable.
 
I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm on d4m10n's part (ie, there is no such manifesto, so LJ's post is ridiculous).


I know, I was just pointing it up.

The narrative seems to be that gender-critical people are concerned that being trans is not a bed of roses. Cross-sex hormones are damaging even to an adult body, and puberty blockers given to a young person followed by cross-sex hormones are horrific. These people become sexless for life - unable to experience arousal - not to mention the cognitive effects, the bone demineralisation and so on. We've discussed the awful complications of the surgeries already, and the dreadfully high incidence of complications.

Even social transition on its own, although thankfully reversible, is not necessarily a happy experience. People stare. Finding a romantic partner becomes very difficult - though perhaps not as difficult as with surgical and medical transition. There seems to be constant stress wondering how other people perceive you, desperate for validation, desperate to "pass".

Given these facts, it would seem a reasonable course of action to help young people especially come to terms with the healthy bodies they have, rather than be immediately set on a path to sterility, medical and surgical complications, an increased risk of serious diseases and a shortened life-span.

This is interpreted by the TRAs as "terfs think being trans is a bad thing." Also "terfs want to minimise the number of people transtioning." So far, so reasonable. But this morphs into "terfs want to stamp out trans people," "terfs want trans people dead" and "they want trans genocide."

That's the chain of logic. It's a lot more tenuous than posting pictures of guns and knives and other pink-and-blue-painted weapons with the caption "kill terfs", I think.
 
Unisex toilets. Problem solved.


Oh no, not that again. We've been round this a dozen times in this thread and I really don't want another go.

Unisex (mixed-sex) toilets are an absolutely terrible idea, everybody hates them, and the incidence of assault, both actual violence and crimes such as voyeurism, indecent exposure and covert filming go through the roof.
 
If those subjects are valid for this thread, then it is also relevant to point out that transpeople of both genders are subject to a disproportionate amount of violence due to their gender identity. This case is quite prominent, and the fact that Brianna Ghey's parents say that she had been subjected to bullying because of her gender.

This case is shocking because it's actually very, very, very unusual. Since 2009, only ten trans-identified males have been murdered in the UK. This is the first such murder since 2019, so there were no such cases in 2020, 2021, or 2022, and Brianna Ghey is the first trans teenager to be murdered perhaps ever in the UK.

Of the ten trans women and girls murdered since 2009, five lived in London, one in Manchester, two in the Midlands (Salford and Worcestershire), one in Brighton and now one in Cheshire, in between Liverpool and Manchester. Three were killed by sex buyers, six were in their 20s and 30s including all three of the victims of sex buyers; three were in their 40s to 60s and now one teenage trans girl. Only two of the ten murders including Brianna Ghey's contained a possible or explicit transphobic or homophobic motive, the others were related to prostitution, drugs or were domestic murders - including one killed by another trans woman.

Data from here: https://kareningalasmith.com/2021/04/21/counting-dead-trans-people/
If there have been further cases within the UK missed by this survey, obviously they should be added and the picture adjusted. But I doubt anyone will recall a murder of a trans teenager in the UK happening before.


This case reminds me a little of the death of 17 year old Sophie Lancaster in 2007, killed evidently for looking different - Sophie was a goth, there was a large outcry but no wave of violence against goths, geeks or other teenage subcultures really followed.

The murder of under-16s remains rare - 59 cases in the latest stats for the previous year - with most killed by family members, fewer by strangers. The murder of teenagers is a little more common, but teenagers killing other teenagers is typically big-city gang-related. Those are somewhat on the rise especially in London, with repeated cases of murders in knife attacks being regularly reported, but the highest number of knife homicides in general was in 2017/2018 (281 fatalities, versus 235 in 2021/2021).

Hate crimes in the UK are now much better recorded, the overwhelming majority in the latest stats for 2021/2022 are racially motivated; violence against gays and lesbians runs at five times the absolute rate of violence against transgender people.
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...022/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2021-to-2022

for the data tables - the appendix tables give more of a breakdown
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2021-to-2022

One can see that transgender people experience 2.6% of all hate crimes including public order offences, stalking/harassment and physical violence, which eventually breaks down into 391 out of 10,279 cases of 'violence with physical injury' recorded as hate crimes. No further breakdown by age or gender identity (trans men vs trans women) is given.

The comparable stat for 'sexual orientation' is 2,136 - so 2,136 reported crimes inflicting physical injuries on gay men and lesbian women. 'Gay-bashing' is apparently alive and well long after schools, the media, culture and society moved on to be more accepting.

There are 4,204 secondary schools in the UK, a high proportion of which now have multiple trans-identifying pupils, whose social transition is encouraged and feted by many of the schools. How much bullying of trans pupils goes on has not previously been reported; the tone of reporting is that schools are going out of their way to be supportive of trans children and teenagers.

There are reportedly several trans pupils at Brianna Ghey's school, and yes there are now reports Brianna was bullied at school for years. Why bullying escalated to murder is currently unclear.
 
Last edited:
Oh no, not that again. We've been round this a dozen times in this thread and I really don't want another go.

Unisex (mixed-sex) toilets are an absolutely terrible idea, everybody hates them, and the incidence of assault, both actual violence and crimes such as voyeurism, indecent exposure and covert filming go through the roof.


Oh no, not that again. Unisex toilets are fine, and hardly anybody hates them. No more assaults, voyeurism or filming than 50 years ago.
https://politiken.dk/debat/art8180174/Kønsopdelte-toiletter-fører-til-sexisme-og-diskrimination
 
Here’s a handy link with all the objective, reliable, triple-sourced reports Newsnight has run on the Tavistock (they ran stories in July and November of 2019, as well as June, October and December of 2020). Most produced by Hannah Barnes, the author of the new book.

Ouch. Facts hurt.
 
Ouch. Facts hurt.


I would quite appreciate a sensible rebuttal from LJ. So far all he's presented is his opinion that if the material in the book was reliable, Hannah Barnes's employer would have run another item on it yesterday. And that other news outlets would have picked up on the Sunday Times coverage and done likewise.

This seems very thin gruel. In fact the Telegraph has run a story on it, but it's not actually news. It's a fleshing-out of detail on a story that has been running for a couple of years, and the book isn't even published yet. The Sunday Times was given an exclusive as part of the publicity in the run-up to publication next week. A weekend magazine-style coverage - it was extensive and quite a splash, but it wasn't "hold-the-front-page" material.

There may be more when the actual publication date arrives. On the other hand everyone is expecting a great deal more to hit the fan when the full-length Cass report is published, which might not be long now.

Newsnight journalist undertakes extensive research following on a series of reports she did for the programme, obviously with the blessing of her managers, and publishes a book about it. LJ's reason for believing that the contents of the book are fabricated? Newsnight didn't run another item on it at the time the Sunday Times ran its pre-publication exclusive.

And now all we're getting is incomprehensively bad fanfic. I'm beginning to think LJ doesn't have any actual reasons at all.
 
It doesn't matter if the bathrooms are unisex.
I see no problem w/ unisex bathrooms if they are also single user.

If they are mulit-user, though, you end up with stories like this one.

Is there someplace which managed to switch over its old multi-user facilities without causing a similar ruckus?
 
Last edited:
I see no problem w/ unisex bathrooms if they are also single user.

If they are mulit-user, though, you end up with stories like this one.

Is there someplace which managed to switch over its old multi-user facilities without causing a similar ruckus?


Very few men see the problems, even after they've been pointed out to them numerous times. It's as if inconveniences and dangers and loss of amenity that only affect women don't matter.
 
Very few men see the problems, even after they've been pointed out to them numerous times. It's as if inconveniences and dangers and loss of amenity that only affect women don't matter.

Because the "problem" is we won't cheerfully and passively accept that we're all dangerous monsters who need to be quarantined.

I'm surprised you let us drink from the same water fountains.
 
Some of you are dangerous monsters and we can't tell which by looking at you. Decent men stay out of women's single-sex spaces so women can spot the indecent ones and deal with them. Any man who wants and campaigns to share women's private spaces is an instant red flag.
 
Last edited:
I see no problem w/ unisex bathrooms if they are also single user.

If they are mulit-user, though, you end up with stories like this one.

Is there someplace which managed to switch over its old multi-user facilities without causing a similar ruckus?


Then don't make them multi-user if that's the problem.
 
It doesn't matter if the bathrooms are unisex.

Unisex bathrooms won't solve the problem, which is (some) males wanting everything females have.

You're not going to make unisex sports, or unisex prisons. So why bother with something like unisex bathrooms, which women don't even want anyway?

Once you concede that transgender identity does not create a right to transcend sex segregation, then segregating things like bathrooms becomes a non-issue. The solution there is the same as in other cases of sex-segregated spaces and categories: The males go with the males, and the females go with the females.

You're trying to solve a problem nobody actually has, while ignoring the problem people are actually trying to solve.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom