• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Someone must have hijacked your account Rolfe, because I was replying to a post under your name:


These courses, at that college.

What is this all about anyway? What are you trying to argue, what are you trying to prove?

It is a fact that a man who had already stood in the dock accused of two counts of violent rape, and who was later convicted of these offences, was present as a student in a class where two young female students have described themselves as being "nearly naked" while carrying out class work. These two girls, and another woman who was also there, have described feelings of horror and dismay on discovering this.

Do you really deny that there was a serious safeguarding breach?
 
They didn’t strip off in the sense of being naked or do a strip in front of people. What happens in these courses - which are of course open to both sexes - men are quite allowed to become beauty therapists and do become such after studying for the likes of NVQs at colleges - is that the students often practice the treatments on each other voluntarily. For spray tan practice one of the students will have worn a bikini if female or briefs if male. No one is forced to strip, no one gets naked, they literally will be dressed as they would be on Love Island or any summertime beach or if they were having the treatment in a salon.

The issue here is not a trans issue it is a safeguarding issue, the rapist could have joined the course as a male, attended the course as a male and presented as male, their trans status had nothing to do with them being able to join the course. It isn’t something that will have a simple one size solution, and in my mind it is not something that should be down to a college to deal with unless we provide them the tools to deal with it. Do we start building a database of people who are waiting to be put on trial but are not remanded? What about innocent until proven guilty?

It’s both. If you read some of the links posted here (which I doubt you have) you will see that the percentage of transwomen convicted and jailed in the UK for sexual offences is around 50%, more than twice the rate of male prisoners. The fact that this rapist is transgender is completely relevant.
 
*sigh*

1) Anti-gay bigots refused to accept the experts' opinion that homosexuality is a valid human condition, rather than a mental health disorder. These bigots thought they knew better than the experts.

2) Anti-transgender-identity bigots refuse to accept the experts' opinion that transgender identity is a valid human condition, rather than a mental health disorder. These bigots think they know better than the experts.


I mean, I realise why you and others in this thread who share bigoted views of transgender identity continue to try to shut down the comparison: it doesn't make your views look good, does it? And frankly, I don't give a **** that you pretend the comparison isn't noteworthy. It's exactly what I'd expect. Which is kind of the whole point. Carry on!

Next time, to save you time writing and others reading, just post “failed homosexual analogy”.
 
Lionking said:
It’s both. If you read some of the links posted here (which I doubt you have) you will see that the percentage of transwomen convicted and jailed in the UK for sexual offences is around 50%, more than twice the rate of male prisoners. The fact that this rapist is transgender is completely relevant.


The sheer number of trans-identifying men in prison (in proportion to their frequency in the population at large) is startling, and the sheer number of them who are there for sexual crimes is even more startling. Or rather, not quite as startling as all that when one considers the huge number of high profile perverts and weirdos who present themselves as trans, but it's still a bit of a shock to see it confirmed in hard numbers.

There are only two possible explanations for this. Either trans-identifying males are indeed vastly more likely to commit sexual offences than other men (never mind in comparison to women, who barely trouble the scorer in that respect), or else an awful lot of sex offenders have decided that adopting a trans persona is a smart career move.

I suspect it's a bit of both. Adam Graham looks a lot like the latter category to me. There are also individuals who pretty much defy analysis - people like Andrew Burns who are so disturbed it's impossible to separate off the proclaimed trans identity from "Mighty Almighty" or "Obi-Wan Kenobi" (and he should probably be in Carstairs, not Cornton Vale), and like Albert Caballero who seems to have learning difficulties. Nevertheless the trans identity of people like Jonathan Yaniv and "Beth Douglas" (can't remember his real name) doesn't seem put-on for effect, but part of the whole obnoxious package.

The problem for the trans activists is that they're screwed either way. If everyone who says he is trans is to be believed, trust people when they tell you who they are, they know best, self-ID is the way to go, then trans-identifying males are a population with an absolutely terrifying proportion of sex offenders in it. On the other hand if the figures are being skewed by bad actors, by sex offenders who simply see a declaration that they're trans as being a nice ticket to a less restrictive prison régime and being locked up with women who can't get away and having the fun of forcing prison staff to provide you with adult nappies and a dummy tit and hold your hand for you, then self-ID is holed below the water line.

As I say, it's probably a bit of both. But get this. It is long past time for politicians to stop thinking only about the "absolutely lovely" transitioned man who is polite and gentle and wouldn't hurt a fly, and rearranging the world solely for the benefit of this person. Indeed, how much benefit is all this rearranging of the world actually going to be to these people? When you drill down into it, it seems to boil down to no more than avoiding the occasional incident or confrontation that might embarrass them.

For this laudable aim, women - half the population, the half that is weaker and less able to defend itself and which has been disadvantated for centuries - is to have Adam Graham and Andrew Burns and the rest of that list I provided earlier and "Beth Douglas" and Jonathan Yaniv and Mridul Wahadwa and Leeze Lawrence and the rest of the revolting legions of perverted, fetishistic, violent men foisted on them. In toilets and changing rooms and sports competitions and prisons and YH dormitories and domestic violence and rape shelters. And in lesbian dating apps and women's knitting circles and even dinner parties. No place at all where they can't go, no place at all for women to be free of male company.

It's time for the politicians to find some other way to spare the polite, considerate, inoffensive trans people a bit of embarrassment, and start considering the interests of the 51% of the population they've been expecting will just move over and give up everything to the Sacred Trans.

Because we won't.
 
Last edited:
Anyone serious about trans rights would be on board with walling out exploitative psychos. LJ seems to be taking the opposite tack. Which okay, whatever. Only what harbor is he actually sailing towards?
 
The trans rights activists (I don't know about John in this particular respect) can't go that road, for a very simple reason. If they acknowledge that some of the people claiming to be trans are bad actors, they destroy the thing they want most, which is self-ID. So they're reduced to calling us hateful for "deadnaming" a serial rapist and intoning that even people convicted of sex offences have human rights.
 
The Observer has long taken a different tone to the Guardian on gender identity (not least due to Sonia Sodha's commentaries), but this comment piece by Catherine Bennett, calling out the misogyny of Labour (and others) towards gender-critical women including its own women MPs, is a step up, not least because we've had 'decapitate TERFs', Lloyd Russell-Moyle and assorted other incidents in recent *days*.

Even after they have been energetically discouraged by online threats and insults – some originating from colleagues – and by the sort of violence-inciting banners that have become so familiar at demonstrations that some SNP MPs easily missed one reading “Decapitate Terfs” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists, now a catch-all term for recalcitrant women).

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...misogynists-in-labours-ranks?CMP=share_btn_tw
 
Owen Jones is simply frightful, and I think some people at the Guardian are scared of the wee nyaff.
 
Oh God I forgot all about "Danielle Muscato she/her" - he had literally fallen off my radar.

Bear in mind this is a middle-aged man speaking. https://twitter.com/DanielleMuscato/status/1619071910557655040

Oh, and he looks like this. Or maybe a bit older, it's not a recent picture.

FnjV_BFXEAEddMg


At least that picture isn't taken inside a women's lavatory, like so many of these trans selfies. Someone has suggested it was taken in a women's refuge, but I don't know the details.
 
Last edited:
Someone here is not a woman who has had a spray tan, body scrub, or bikini wax at a salon. You are most definitely getting naked to do it correctly. It would be quite bizarre for a male to do any of those. Maybe massage where you are under a towel, but still naked or nearly naked.

Men get spray tans.

I haven't seen any reference to the class covering bikini waxes or body scrubs. those classes may have different requirements for enrollment

And there are male beauticians. They train somewhere. Probably in the same classes the women train in. I've seen men walk out of the local beauty college with the other students. It happens to be next to the gaming store I play at.

I think Darat is likely correct about this. While most students at these colleges are women due to stereotypical roles, there are some men who pursue that career path. Presenting as trans likely didn't get him into the class.

The name change may, however, have made any vetting more difficult. Obviously, some means of tracking individuals across name changes is needed. In the US, social security numbers can serve that purpose. I don't know about the UK.

On the other hand, I don't think colleges generally do background checks on their potential students.

To give some real life examples of men I've personally encountered who would have gone to a beauty college:

Back in the mid 90s, I knew a guy (very heterosexual) guy who was a licensed and practicing hair stylist. Presumably he didn't take cosmetology courses, but he would have been at the same school where it's taught. My wife used to hire him to do her hair, as he was very good.

The nail salon at the mall is owned by a man. He is also one of the nail technicians, as are several other males. As I recall, out of about ten nail technicians in the shop, at least three are men. Again, this requires education and a license where I come from.

To be clear, it is definitely a female dominant field, both in customers and providers. But there really are male providers, and there really are men who get a lot of the services and there always have been.
 
Oh goodie, another one. There is an advance facsimile of the front page of the Sunday Mail (sister paper to the Daily Record) on Twitter now. The huge headline reads:

MY JAIL HELL WITH TRANS CONS

A woman locked up with violent trans inmates has accused the Scottish government of "serving women up to predators on a rainbow platter". Amanda Benson said she lived in fear of being raped. Nicola Sturgeon did a U-turn after the furious row over transgender double rapist Isla Bryson being put in a women's prison. And the mum of one of Bryson's three kids said "he shouldn't have been in jail with vulnerable women."


That's all that's on the front page, but the whole article will be online in a few hours. We're pointed to pages 4&5, and 6&7. "Inmate tells how she lived in constant fear of attack" and "Rapist's ex vows daughter will never know her dad". So it looks like two separate articles. And they're not even touching the fragrant Tiffany yet, possibly keeping that on the back burner until he's actually physically transferred.

Not a good day to be Nicola Sturgeon. Good. Her advisors need to tell her straight that this is suicide and she needs to copy Westminster and get all male convicts out of women's prisons by the end of the month. This month.

I'm also quite pleased because I know my friend who was carrying water for the GRA reforms at New Year, saying "how often would it happen?" (that a bad actor would take advantage of self-ID) and thinking only of her one "lovely" trans friend. Maybe this will clue her up a bit.
 
Last edited:
The trans rights activists (I don't know about John in this particular respect) can't go that road, for a very simple reason. If they acknowledge that some of the people claiming to be trans are bad actors, they destroy the thing they want most, which is self-ID. So they're reduced to calling us hateful for "deadnaming" a serial rapist and intoning that even people convicted of sex offences have human rights.


Wow. Am I to infer from this rather stunning statement of yours that you believe people convicted of sex offences should have/do have no human rights?

Regarding your other point, if somebody (yes, even a male-born rapist of a ciswoman) says they identify as transgender, then they are transgender. I consider it highly likely that at least some male-born people who've been convicted and incarcerated are lying when they say they identify as women. But I share the view of the experts that one should not - and most likely cannot - have to pass a "test" before one is "accepted" as transgender.

When it comes to this specific prisoner issue, things will rightly continue to work as they have done for some time now: if a male-born prisoner states that they identify as a transwoman and asks to be moved to the women's estate, a detailed risk assessment will occur which will take into account a number of salient factors - including the offending history of the prisoner, the behaviour of the prisoner while incarcerated, and the risk of harm to both the prisoner and existing women prisoners. If that risk assessment concludes that it is safe and appropriate to move the transwoman prisoner to the women's estate, that move will be done carefully and under close observation. And any offending behaviour (even low-level) from the transwoman prisoner will result in punitive/corrective measures, including the possibility of returning the prisoner to the men's estate.


Incidentally, in passing: if a transwoman prisoner does not "pass" the risk assessment for transferring to the women's estate (and therefore remains incarcerated within the men's estate), this does not mean - contrary to the wrong conclusions being drawn by the ignorant and/or bigoted - that the prisoner's transwoman identity has been denied by the authorities. The prisoner will continue to be treated as a transwoman for as long as they identify as a transwoman (which in itself will result in measures being implemented to protect the prisoner while they are in the men's estate).
 
Oh goodie, another one. There is an advance facsimile of the front page of the Sunday Mail (sister paper to the Daily Record) on Twitter now. The huge headline reads:

MY JAIL HELL WITH TRANS CONS




That's all that's on the front page, but the whole article will be online in a few hours. We're pointed to pages 4&5, and 6&7. "Inmate tells how she lived in constant fear of attack" and "Rapist's ex vows daughter will never know her dad". So it looks like two separate articles. And they're not even touching the fragrant Tiffany yet, possibly keeping that on the back burner until he's actually physically transferred.

Not a good day to be Nicola Sturgeon. Good. Her advisors need to tell her straight that this is suicide and she needs to copy Westminster and get all male convicts out of women's prisons by the end of the month. This month.

I'm also quite pleased because I know my friend who was carrying water for the GRA reforms at New Year, saying "how often would it happen?" (that a bad actor would take advantage of self-ID) and thinking only of her one "lovely" trans friend. Maybe this will clue her up a bit.


Yep. Sounds reliable. I guess the bar for reliability is low for the bigots, eh?
 
The issue here is not a trans issue it is a safeguarding issue, the rapist could have joined the course as a male, attended the course as a male and presented as male, their trans status had nothing to do with them being able to join the course.

You're arguing that it is not necessary for courses to be single sex, which is not the point I was making.

If it were a female single sex course (for say bikini waxing) under the single sex exemption the areas of conflict under the current understanding of equality law are:

Males claiming sex discrimination because they believe the single sex exemption is unnecessary.

Transwomen with a GRC having a right to participate because of the Haldane judgement says they have changed sex.

Transwomen without a GRC claiming either sex discrimination or discrimination due to gender reassignment (or both).

The law is a bit of a mess and SelfID will make it worse.
 
You're not a mind reader, and you don't have a clue.


I'm certainly not a mind reader; which is why I don't have the faintest idea what you're on about.

But on a related issue: when I talk about bigoted views within this thread, I'm talking about all the times when...... bigoted views have been explicitly articulated within this thread. And I suppose I'm also talking, albeit to a lesser extent, about the ways in which such bigoted views have either been endorsed by others, or have never been challenged by others.

And since I can't read minds, I'm sure you won't mind if I get your on-the-record opinion as to whether transgender identity is a mental health disorder?
 
Your midnight check-in on the petition reports 76,678 signatures, so 393 new signatures today. Back to the regular rate but still well ahead of target.

The new magic number is 284.4.
 
I'm certainly not a mind reader; which is why I don't have the faintest idea what you're on about.

But on a related issue: when I talk about bigoted views within this thread, I'm talking about all the times when...... bigoted views have been explicitly articulated within this thread. And I suppose I'm also talking, albeit to a lesser extent, about the ways in which such bigoted views have either been endorsed by others, or have never been challenged by others.

And since I can't read minds, I'm sure you won't mind if I get your on-the-record opinion as to whether transgender identity is a mental health disorder?

What would it matter?
I have said about multiple times that 'transgender identity' without dysphoria is not a mental health disorder and has not been classified as such for about 35 years, and you still repeatedly lie and claim that I think transgender identity is a mental health disorder. You also repeatedly claim that it was classified as a disorder until DSM-5 and this underpins government policy, despite this being debunked multiple times.

There is no reason why anyone should bother with your nonsense.
 
You're arguing that it is not necessary for courses to be single sex, which is not the point I was making.

If it were a female single sex course (for say bikini waxing) under the single sex exemption the areas of conflict under the current understanding of equality law are:

Males claiming sex discrimination because they believe the single sex exemption is unnecessary.

Transwomen with a GRC having a right to participate because of the Haldane judgement says they have changed sex.

Transwomen without a GRC claiming either sex discrimination or discrimination due to gender reassignment (or both).

The law is a bit of a mess and SelfID will make it worse.


That's well expressed. I am assured that appropriate questions are being asked of the college so hopefully some answers will be forthcoming.

For what it's worth, I suspect that it wasn't officially a single-sex course but male students either weren't expected or showed up only infrequently. We don't know yet whether, in that case, there were any bona fide male students in this particular class. If male students were a possible thing in that class, and it was expected that at least some people would get "almost naked" (to quote the students themselves), what were the safeguarding arrangements, and were these in operation in relation to "Annie" Bryson, who was male?

We know he didn't have a GRC, but it's perfectly possible that whatever safeguarding protocols were in place to deal with the presence of a male student were not invoked, because the place is as woke as an insomniac after three double espressos.

Of course, if there were bona fide male students present on the same terms as Graham/Bryson, then the girls have a lot less to complain about - at that point the issue is merely that the college enrolled a male student who was at that very time in the middle of a trial process on two counts of rape.

If it was a single-sex course, then, just, wow.
 
And since I can't read minds, I'm sure you won't mind if I get your on-the-record opinion as to whether transgender identity is a mental health disorder?

Outside of helping people deal with it as a disorder, I don't care.

My stance is women have ZERO obligation to let people with penises, formerly known as men, to take over their spaces and/or organizations. Civil rights such as employment, educational opportunity, etc. should always be protected for anyone regardless of gender. Being afforded privileges (such as women's sports) is not a right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom