Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Ziggurat]

If you won't look you won't see.

Show me the violations of policy. Show me the people who have been disciplined for those violations.

As for not seeing what you don’t look for, that’s quite ironic, given the continual assurances we have been given that predators claiming to be trans aren’t a problem.

 

[Paul2]

. . . . Just as when a small band of hard-core reactionary zealots still refused to see homosexuality as anything other than mentally-disordered deviancy - in spite of the relevant experts declaring it to be a valid lived human condition, and in spite of progressive governments throughout the liberalised world legislating for gay rights - so this latter-day bunch of reactionary zealots will rightly get left behind.

This critique would have a chance to carry some force if it acknowledged the several counters to it already expressed in this thread But merely repeating it - how many times now? - as if no challenge - valid or not - to it had ever been offered shows a refusal to engage with that actual point of disagreement.

 

[Paul2]

I feel like we should also not overlook the delicious irony of LJ being one of the most vehement opponents of my premise that appeals to analogy always fail.

I’m think you and I (and others?) had a good disagreement a while ago about your premise, didn’t we? Good Times!

 

[Aber]

We have something called the equality act that would make a beautician course being open to only women illegal….

Not quite.

Same sex spaces are allowed as an exception to the Equality Act, and there is a reasonable argument that stripping off for spray tanning could be used as a justification.

 

[Rolfe]

Not quite.

Same sex spaces are allowed as an exception to the Equality Act, and there is a reasonable argument that stripping off for spray tanning could be used as a justification.

I had a Twitter conversation about that with Lucy Hunter-Blackburn and she was going to consult about it. There's a lot we still don't know about that course, but she thinks there were huge safeguarding failures.

Since Graham had been on trial for rape as "Adam Graham" and was calling himself "Annie Bryson" at the college, its highly likely they wouldn't have been able to find out about his record even if they did do some sort of disclosure on the students. Nevertheless they had a male person in his late 20s in a class stuffed with girls in their late teens, on a course where students would be in close personal contact and some would be stripping off. I suspect they simply chanted TWAW and assessed his risk on the same basis as they would have assessed the risk of a female in her late 20s.

I doubt that the course was stipulated as being female-only, but I think in practice most iterations of the course would turn out to be female-only. If they did have male students from time to time, there must surely have been protocols in place to deal with this. However, they wouldn't have applied them to Graham because TWAW.

 

[Darat]

Not quite.

Same sex spaces are allowed as an exception to the Equality Act, and there is a reasonable argument that stripping off for spray tanning could be used as a justification.

They didn’t strip off in the sense of being naked or do a strip in front of people. What happens in these courses - which are of course open to both sexes - men are quite allowed to become beauty therapists and do become such after studying for the likes of NVQs at colleges - is that the students often practice the treatments on each other voluntarily. For spray tan practice one of the students will have worn a bikini if female or briefs if male. No one is forced to strip, no one gets naked, they literally will be dressed as they would be on Love Island or any summertime beach or if they were having the treatment in a salon.

The issue here is not a trans issue it is a safeguarding issue, the rapist could have joined the course as a male, attended the course as a male and presented as male, their trans status had nothing to do with them being able to join the course. It isn’t something that will have a simple one size solution, and in my mind it is not something that should be down to a college to deal with unless we provide them the tools to deal with it. Do we start building a database of people who are waiting to be put on trial but are not remanded? What about innocent until proven guilty?

 

[Darat]

Show me the violations of policy. Show me the people who have been disciplined for those violations.

For example the rapist at the start of this part of the discussion. And obviously we will not have any way of determining who has been disciplined for a breach of a given policy in the prison service.

As for not seeing what you don’t look for, that’s quite ironic, given the continual assurances we have been given that predators claiming to be trans aren’t a problem.

That’s not irony as you are talking about different things not related to what I have posted.

 

[Sherkeu]

They didn’t strip off in the sense of being naked or do a strip in front of people. What happens in these courses - which are of course open to both sexes - men are quite allowed to become beauty therapists and do become such after studying for the likes of NVQs at colleges - is that the students often practice the treatments on each other voluntarily. For spray tan practice one of the students will have worn a bikini if female or briefs if male. No one is forced to strip, no one gets naked, they literally will be dressed as they would be on Love Island or any summertime beach or if they were having the treatment in a salon.

The issue here is not a trans issue it is a safeguarding issue, the rapist could have joined the course as a male, attended the course as a male and presented as male, their trans status had nothing to do with them being able to join the course. It isn’t something that will have a simple one size solution, and in my mind it is not something that should be down to a college to deal with unless we provide them the tools to deal with it. Do we start building a database of people who are waiting to be put on trial but are not remanded? What about innocent until proven guilty?

Someone here is not a woman who has had a spray tan, body scrub, or bikini wax at a salon. You are most definitely getting naked to do it correctly. It would be quite bizarre for a male to do any of those. Maybe massage where you are under a towel, but still naked or nearly naked.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm actually finding this quite difficult to keep up with.

Focus is now shifting to another violent male criminal who identifies as a woman, someone even worse than Graham by the sound of it. He is one Andrew Burns, who goes by the name "Tiffany Scott". We first encounter the fragrant Tiffany in August 2017, when he made the red-top tabloids on account of the court having to be cleared for safety reasons for his sentencing hearing.

Court put in lockdown as dangerous 'dirty protest' transexual prisoner appears in dock half naked

'TAKE HIM DOWN': Dangerous transgender prisoner brands sheriff a ‘ transphobe b*****d’ and ‘’ as judge refuses to call inmate ‘her’ at sentencing (I've had to do extra censoring on that headline to mask the sweary-words more completely.)

A courtroom was put into lockdown today for the sentencing of a transexual prisoner said to be one of the most dangerous inmates in the whole of the Scottish prison system. Tiffany Scott, formerly known as Andrew Burns, was led into the dock, half naked to the waist, wearing the remains of a shirt torn to shreds, before shouting vile abuse at a sheriff.

Scott, 26, smeared excrement over her (sic) cell, tore a drip needle out of his own arm, ripped up supposedly tear-proof clothing, and assaulted four warders and a prison nurse during days of "dirty protest" at Glenochil Prison, Clackmannanshire, which is renowned as one of Scotland's toughest jails.

He was found guilty of the outrages last week. The verdicts followed a trial held in his absence because he refused to leave his cell at Saughton Prison, Edinburgh, where he is now being held. He was brought to Falkirk Sheriff Court amid top security after a warrant was issued forcing his attendance as under Scots law nobody can be jailed in their absence.

Members of the public were cleared from the courtroom, amid fears that Scott, who has been known to bite open his own veins and spray blood at people, presented "a clear danger".

It appears that this person was convicted of assault and criminal damage committed while he was serving an indeterminate sentence in the segregation unit at Glenochil prison.

At the time, prison staff were complying with his requests that he should be known as "Mighty Almighty", or Obi Wan Kenobi. He covered himself in excrement which he also smeared round his cell door and over the observation port, and staged a self-hanging by shredding his tear-proof clothing into strips and making a noose, which he suspended from a sprinkler valve.

Warders – wearing full-body protective clothing, including helmet, visor, and gloves, and carrying 4ft by 2ft Plexiglass shields amid fears that Scott was armed with a medical cannula she (sic) had ripped from her (sic) body during hospital treatment – had to burst into her cell to save his life.

Scott later assaulted prison officer Paul Lockie, 45, throwing a cup of liquid, possibly urine, at him. He also assaulted the jail nurse, Fiona Parker, in a consultation room, striking her on the back with a hurled chair, and another officer, Kenneth Hilton, by punching him in the face as Mr Hilton sat at a desk doing paperwork.

And that's just about as much as I can reasonably quote - the articles go on and on. Though it is funny to hear witnesses referring to the prisoner as "Mr Almighty".

Burns has a string of convictions for crimes including assaults, vandalism and resisting arrest, and he's considered so dangerous that he has been given an "order for lifelong restriction" and will only be released when the courts are satisfied that he is no longer a danger to society. Which could be the tenth of never, by the sound of it.

These quotes are from the Daily Record article, which mostly uses masculine pronouns for Burns, but feminine pronouns creep in in a couple of places. I wonder how that happened? Given that the masculine pronouns predominate, I speculate that someone originally wrote the story with feminine pronouns and an editor said "this is ludicrous" and changed it, missing a few in the process. Can you imagine how that lot would read with feminine pronouns throughout? You don't have to, because the version in the Sun does it. However, the pictures are all of an unmistakably masculine person - shirtless - with no sign of any attempt to look feminine.

Although Burns was held in the male estate, he had the right to be "patted down" by female prison officers because of his "gender identity". Three women officers refused to touch him and called in their union to defend them from being required to do it. (There are clearly issues about this, and if prison officers have to go to their union in protest it is certainly not a nothing-burger.)

Today we are hearing that Burns has been cleared to be transferred to a women's prison. Today, when the fall-out from the Adam Graham case is still not over.

New trans prisoner storm looms for Nicola Sturgeon over transfer of violent stalker Tiffany Scott

Nicola Sturgeon faces another trans storm after a decision was made to house one of Scotland’s most violent prisoners in a women’s jail. The Record can reveal that volatile Tiffany Scott - who stalked a 13-year-old girl while known as Andrew Burns - has been rubber-stamped for transfer to a jail that aligns with her chosen gender. Scott, 31, has been repeatedly refused the switch over several years but senior management relented in recent weeks. It is understood that the transfer is still planned - despite the First Minister instructing a U-turn on a decision to house double rapist Isla Bryson at all-women jail Cornton Vale, Stirling, on Thursday.

Last night the Scottish Government faced calls to make another embarrassing U-turn on Scott. A source said: “Of all the female trans prisoners in the estate, Scott has been considered the most dangerous." They added: "Isla Bryson’s rape convictions took public perception of the risks to a new level. Cornton Vale staff were bracing themselves for Scott and then the Bryson case showed how ill equipped the SPS is to deal with the most extreme trans prisoners. As it stands, Scott will be admitted to a women’s jail - probably the New HMP Stirling later this year - and held in segregation. This will very possibly lead to full integration with the main prison community. This highly disturbed prisoner has attacked female staff during time in prison, has admitted stalking a young girl and has been one of the most menacing people inside Scottish jails. It’s madness to send her to a women’s jail - there needs to be a better solution than this.”

This is the Daily Record again, now apparently having decided to use feminine pronouns for Burns after all.

This has apparently been in the pipeline for several weeks and staff at Cornton Vale were already bracing themselves for "Tiffany" when the Adam Graham storm blew up. Because Burns has not been convicted of rape (although he did stalk a 13 year old girl) the transfer is still planned to go ahead. This is a guy who can tear the supposedly tear-proof clothes they put on violent criminals, and rips open his own veins to spray blood on people.

And that's just one person, but I'll put the rest in another post.

 

[Rolfe]

Other men in Scotland pretending to be women (or worse) to be moved in to live with female prisoners are:

Daniel "Sophie" Eastwood, sentenced to life for murder, should have been released on licence by now but the authorities won't let him out because he's so dangerous. Something about strangling somebody with shoelaces as far as I remember. He has been in various women's prisons (Greenock and Polmont) where he behaved extraordinarily badly, public indecency and flashing inmates and staff. He is currently in Cornton Vale, where he now identifies as a baby. He insists on having a dummy-tit and incontinence pads as nappies, and that a warder hold his hand when he leaves his cell.

Katie Dolatowski, convicted of sexual offences against young girls including one attempted rape. This is the beauty who is usually illustrated by a heavily-filtered photo of a cute wee face with mouse-ears looking like something out of Beatrix Potter, while he is actually six feet five inches tall with long stringy black hair and built like a barn door. While on the male prison estate he tried to strangle his cell-mate. He is also currently in Cornton Vale.

Alex Stewart is the guy who took all the prizes in the fitness competitions at Greenock prison, leaving the women prisoners for whom this competition was of serious rehabilitative use and who coveted the prizes on offer with no chance. He and Eastwood were a couple in Greenock and committed so many public decency offences there that they were split up. However they're now back together again in Cornton Vale.

Peter Laing, now "Paris Green", who was convicted of murder in 2013 and has been moved around various jails amid allegations of having sex with women inmates in Cornton Vale. He seems to be back in Cornton Vale at the moment. Yes, this has been going on for almost ten years. He was initially allowed to go to Cornton Vale in the teeth of protests from his victim's family, because he was going to have "sex reassignment surgery". My most up to date information is that he is still an intact male.

We're told that these men have all been "risk-assessed" so it's fine. And if you believe that I have a nice shiny new bridge over the Firth of Forth to sell you. We're also told that they are kept segregated from the general prison population. However they are not in solitary confinement and there is only one segregation unit at Cornton Vale. They're all together there - what fun! - along with genuinely vulnerable women prisoners including pregnant women and women with serious mental health issues. A recent report spoke of women refusing to wash because the showers in that unit are communal and they can't shower without encountering one of these creeps. Some women are refusing to leave their cells at all.

Jonathan Mallon, now calling himself "Charlene" is a serial rapist who was sentenced to life imprisonment in 2014. He has recently announced that he is trans and "will be in a women's prison by spring." That now seems somewhat unlikely, given that he is actually a convicted rapist and Sturgeon's U-turn earlier this week specifically singles out rapists as not being eligible to be in a women's prison. I'll bet he wishes he'd thought of this ploy back in about 2015.

Albert Caballero, now calling himself "Claire", was convicted in 2018 of imprisoning and raping a young woman who had been sent to his flat to care for him. He is now eligible to apply for parole, but he has recently started asking for lipstick and eye makeup to go with his new name. Since he is also a convicted rapist, it seems this move, like Mallon's, was rendered pointless by Sturgeon's new anti-trans policy.

Scotland is not a large country, but this is only the tip of the iceberg of our violent offender trans problem. The catalogue of highly suspect characters who have not actually been convicted of anything, with "Beth Douglas", Green Party activist and candidate, near the top of the list.

So now tell me about your "lovely" transwoman friend, who wouldn't hurt a fly, and how all this is absolutely necessary so that "she" can be protected from even the possibility of embarrassment. (Which is impossible anyway.)

 

[Rolfe]

Someone here is not a woman who has had a spray tan, body scrub, or bikini wax at a salon. You are most definitely getting naked to do it correctly. It would be quite bizarre for a male to do any of those. Maybe massage where you are under a towel, but still naked or nearly naked.

Once again Darat confidently asserts "facts" of which he has no certain knowledge and about which he is merely speculating.

Women's beauty treatments are very much a single-sex thing. Remember all the fuss about Jonathan "wax-my-balls" Yaniv, in Canada. Most women do not want to have these treatments from a man, and most women do not want to perform these treatments on a man. This isn't like hairdressing. Spray tans, waxing of sensitive and intimate areas and so on require near nudity. These girls all said they were "almost naked" which to me suggests stripped down to their panties, but no bra. They did not say they were wearing bikinis.

So how do training courses for people wanting to perform these treatments actually work? I had not thought about this before, and when I asked Lucy Hunter-Blackburn she said "that's a good question" and went off to find out more. It is quite possible that such a course might take advantage of the single-sex exemptions in the EA if it offered, for example, bikini-line waxing. If it was only shellac nail enamel, maybe not. Nobody mentioned bikini-line waxing in relation to this one but they did mention semi-nudity in the context of spray tan application. So was it open to male students or not? I don't know and neither, it seems, do the newspapers reporting on it.

If the course was open to male students, there must surely have been some protocol for maintaining modesty and decency in classes where people were stripping off at least to their panties. Indeed, even if it was "bra and pants", that is a very different thing from wearing an actual bikini. It may be that such protocols existed but were seldom needed because most of the classes only had female students. Or it may be that they didn't exist because the classes were female-only under the EA exemption. I don't know and neither does Darat.

Either way the problem seems to have been that Graham, although male, and admittedly "at the beginning of her transition" according to one of the brainwashed girls affected, was treated as if he was a female student. Which is exactly where we end up, fairly rapidly, when society is bullied into treating any man who suddenly calls himself "Annie" as a woman.

There's no point in pontificating that the course was open to male students, or that the girls were wearing bikinis, when we don't know. Perhaps MurrayBlackburnMackenzie will be able to find out.

 

[Darat]

Someone here is not a woman who has had a spray tan, body scrub, or bikini wax at a salon. You are most definitely getting naked to do it correctly. It would be quite bizarre for a male to do any of those. Maybe massage where you are under a towel, but still naked or nearly naked.

I’m going off the interviews and reports I heard from the radio yesterday - I’ve no direct experience of college courses for beauticians and I don’t know any beauticians - but the two women lecturers/instructors I heard were very clear that no student at a college beautician course would be getting naked in front of other students. One did mention that another route they use for practical practice is that they offer the treatments to the general public at a reduced rate, which I know often happens with courses such as hairdressing but again those people would never be getting naked at the college. I think she was worried about people being put off taking such a course if they thought they’d be dealing with naked people! They both also confirmed that especially over the last ten years more and more men are training to be beauticians and attending college for the relevant qualifications.

 

[Rolfe]

Nobody claimed that anyone was getting naked. But two female students said they, personally, were "almost naked" in front of Graham. Who do you believe?

Also, while there will undoubtedly be courses that are open to both sexes, there may well be - and indeed probably should be - courses that are open only to one sex. Bikini-line waxing for example. For a course which is open to both sexes but during which semi-nudity occurs, there must be protocols to handle the possibility of male students being present. However, since TWAW, these would not have applied. That is the problem.

 

[Darat]

Once again Darat confidently asserts "facts" of which he has no certain knowledge and about which he is merely speculating.

Nope - I checked local college pages around here and beautician courses are not only open to women. If you do a simple google search you will find that more and more men are becoming qualified beauticians. I know for you everything has to be viewed through the prism of the terrible trans but this is not a trans issue.

Women's beauty treatments are very much a single-sex thing. <<rest of irrelevant to the point being discussed removed>>>

Which of course has nothing to do with the courses offered at colleges. Is that a goal post move or blatant dishonesty?

So how do training courses for people wanting to perform these treatments actually work? I had not thought about this before, and when I asked Lucy Hunter-Blackburn she said "that's a good question" and went off to find out more. It is quite possible that such a course might take advantage of the single-sex exemptions in the EA if it offered, for example, bikini-line waxing. If it was only shellac nail enamel, maybe not. Nobody mentioned bikini-line waxing in relation to this one but they did mention semi-nudity in the context of spray tan application. So was it open to male students or not? I don't know and neither, it seems, do the newspapers reporting on it.

It really takes no time to search and find college beautician courses are open to men and women, why you nor the papers can spare 15 minutes to look into it is a question for you.

If the course was open to male students, there must surely have been some protocol for maintaining modesty and decency in classes where people were stripping off at least to their panties. Indeed, even if it was "bra and pants", that is a very different thing from wearing an actual bikini. It may be that such protocols existed but were seldom needed because most of the classes only had female students. Or it may be that they didn't exist because the classes were female-only under the EA exemption. I don't know and neither does Darat.

Either way the problem seems to have been that Graham, although male, and admittedly "at the beginning of her transition" according to one of the brainwashed girls affected, was treated as if he was a female student. Which is exactly where we end up, fairly rapidly, when society is bullied into treating any man who suddenly calls himself "Annie" as a woman.

There's no point in pontificating that the course was open to male students, or that the girls were wearing bikinis, when we don't know. Perhaps MurrayBlackburnMackenzie will be able to find out.

Or one could do a bit of research rather than expecting others to do the work for you?

 

[Rolfe]

I'm not interested in finding what your local college does, I'm interested in finding out what the circumstances of this particular course were. If it was open to both sexes, how frequently did they have male students in the classes, what protocols were in place to ensure safeguarding in classes where young women were going to be "almost naked" and there was a male student in the class, and whether these protocols would have been applied to a man calling himself Annie and saying he'd just begun his "journey".

I can hazard a guess as to the answer to that last one though.

 

[LondonJohn]

Of all the tiresome things you have posted in this thread, the continued analogy to gay rights is the epitome, and this has been pointed out to you, with evidence, countless times.

*sigh*

1) Anti-gay bigots refused to accept the experts' opinion that homosexuality is a valid human condition, rather than a mental health disorder. These bigots thought they knew better than the experts.

2) Anti-transgender-identity bigots refuse to accept the experts' opinion that transgender identity is a valid human condition, rather than a mental health disorder. These bigots think they know better than the experts.


I mean, I realise why you and others in this thread who share bigoted views of transgender identity continue to try to shut down the comparison: it doesn't make your views look good, does it? And frankly, I don't give a **** that you pretend the comparison isn't noteworthy. It's exactly what I'd expect. Which is kind of the whole point. Carry on!

 

[TheGoldcountry]

*sigh*

1) Anti-gay bigots refused to accept the experts' opinion that homosexuality is a valid human condition, rather than a mental health disorder. These bigots thought they knew better than the experts.

2) Anti-transgender-identity bigots refuse to accept the experts' opinion that transgender identity is a valid human condition, rather than a mental health disorder. These bigots think they know better than the experts.


I mean, I realise why you and others in this thread who share bigoted views of transgender identity continue to try to shut down the comparison: it doesn't make your views look good, does it? And frankly, I don't give a **** that you pretend the comparison isn't noteworthy. It's exactly what I'd expect. Which is kind of the whole point. Carry on!

No one advocates for straight people to have sex with gay people. (Well, they do, but it's treated like any other request for sex: no is an accepted answer.) Gay people simply want to live their own lives as they choose.

TRAs want the entire world to live according to their identity, and when they don't, they're called bigots. It's not about being a "valid lived condition," no matter how many times you repeat that. It's about social engineering for the sake of one demographic. "No" is never an accepted answer, or you're a monster.

IT IS NOT THE SAME THING.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I mean, I realise why you and others in this thread who share bigoted views of transgender identity continue to try to shut down the comparison: it doesn't make your views look good, does it? And frankly, I don't give a **** that you pretend the comparison isn't noteworthy. It's exactly what I'd expect. Which is kind of the whole point. Carry on!

You're not a mind reader, and you don't have a clue.

 

[Darat]

I'm not interested in finding what your local college does, I'm interested in finding out what the circumstances of this particular course were.
…snip…

Someone must have hijacked your account Rolfe, because I was replying to a post under your name:

….
So how do training courses for people wanting to perform these treatments actually work?….

 

[Rolfe]

You're not a mind reader, and you don't have a clue.

I'm proud and happy to be bigoted against Adam Graham, Andrew Burns, Daniel Eastwood, "Katie" Dolatowski, Alex Stewart, Peter Laing, Jonathan Mallon and Albert Caballero. I'm also proud to advocate against legal and societal moves that allow or facilitate them to come into contact with women, vulnerable or otherwise.

I'm proud to oppose moves that allow any man at all who wants to enter and occupy female single-sex spaces and categories, precisely because of the Grahams, Burnses and others of this world, and indeed the lesser offenders who are interested in voyeurism, flashing, tampons and listening to women pee.

These people exist. They are not rare. They are becoming less rare by the day. I am not prepared to countenance what is going on, in the interests of perhaps sparing someone who is fairly benign a moment's embarrassment.