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Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

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d4m10n said:
Nope.

"Persistent and marked distress about sexual orientation" was once in the DSM, but no longer.
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Yes, more of LJ's invented fantasies. There were once classifications related to distress over one's sexual orientation, but not any more. Gender identity disorder was likewise considered for removal DSM-5, but it was decided to retain it as it is not analogous to distress over sexual orientation, as argued by Zucker, the lead of the DSM-5 working party on gender identity disorder, who repeatedly criticises spurious analogies between gender identity and sexual orientation, as LJ is making.

Also, sexual orientation is not an 'identity' in the sense gender identity is defined.
 
LondonJohn said:
A person who identifies as an 18th Century French duke has an invalid identity. A person who identifies as an attack helicopter has an invalid identity.

A person who identifies as homosexual has a valid identity. A person who identifies as transgender has a valid identity.
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That's you, saying it. Where is the mantra from mainstream medicine, saying it?
 
No matter what a person "looks like," their gender identity is always valid and real.
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https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender


Each of these identity trajectories (along with countless others) should be considered normal and valid
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X22001889


If you decide that your current gender or sex just isn’t right, you may want to make your gender identity fit with your ideal gender expression and presentation. This is called “transitioning,” and can include social (like telling other people about which pronouns you like), legal (like changing your name, officially), or medical (like taking hormones, or having surgery). You don’t have to go through all of these things to be “officially” transgender, or to have your gender identity be valid.
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https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-gender-identities/


"Whatever form gender fluidity takes, it is important to remember that it is a valid gender identity. It is not being flaky or 'going through a phase,'" said Dr. Eckler.
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https://www.health.com/mind-body/gender-fluid


Transition: A broad term commonly used to refer to the ongoing process by which a person alters components of their gender expression and/or other personal characteristics to better align with their gender identity. A person's transition may or may not include a combination of social changes (e.g., name, pronouns, appearance and/or clothing), legal changes (e.g., legal name and/or legal gender markers), and medical changes (e.g., gender-affirming hormone therapy and/or surgeries). Note: Not all transgender and/or non-binary people want to transition or are able to access the resources necessary to do so. However, regardless of whether, how, or when a person takes any, some, or all of these actions, their gender identity is valid and should be respected and affirmed.
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https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/...ghts-center/internal/policies/gender-identity


As I've explained many times already, "valid" is in effect a shorthand for "not a mental health disorder".
 
LondonJohn said:
A person who identifies as an 18th Century French duke has an invalid identity. A person who identifies as an attack helicopter has an invalid identity.
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A person who claims to identify as an 18th century duke or an attack helicopter will not be classified as having a mental disorder as long as they do not suffer any distress or impairment, pose no risk of harm to others, or show additional symptoms suggesting the identity is the product of a delusional disorder. Therefore according to your nonsensical definition, their identity is valid. Not only that, but apparently they are literally an 18th century duke or an attack helicopter, because 'valid' apparently also means literally true according to your nonsensical definition. Likewise a medium who believes they can talk to the spirits of the dead has a valid identity and can therefore talk to spirts, and a false memory is not the product of disorder, so is 'valid' which means it must be true.

There is no end to your nonsense.
 
Elaedith said:
Yes, more of LJ's invented fantasies. There were once classifications related to distress over one's sexual orientation, but not any more. Gender identity disorder was likewise considered for removal DSM-5, but it was decided to retain it as it is not analogous to distress over sexual orientation, as argued by Zucker, the lead of the DSM-5 working party on gender identity disorder, who repeatedly criticises spurious analogies between gender identity and sexual orientation, as LJ is making.

Also, sexual orientation is not an 'identity' in the sense gender identity is defined.
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So why do you think governments all over the world are taking transgender rights seriously (and not taking "attack helicopter identity" rights seriously)?

Have you never stopped to think about that? Or are you another of those who rationalise it as "institutional capture" and other such ludicrous conspiracy theories?
 
Elaedith said:
A person who claims to identify as an 18th century duke or an attack helicopter will not be classified as having a mental disorder as long as they do not suffer any distress or impairment, pose no risk of harm to others, or show additional symptoms suggesting the identity is the product of a delusional disorder. Therefore according to your nonsensical definition, their identity is valid. Not only that, but apparently they are literally an 18th century duke or an attack helicopter, because 'valid' apparently also means literally true according to your nonsensical definition. Likewise a medium who believes they can talk to the spirits of the dead has a valid identity and can therefore talk to spirts, and a false memory is not the product of disorder, so is 'valid' which means it must be true.

There is no end to your nonsense.
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Feel free to carry on with your bigoted beliefs about transgender identity. I'm off to clean the sewage off my hands and do something more productive. Ciao!
 
LondonJohn said:
So why do you think governments all over the world are taking transgender rights seriously (and not taking "attack helicopter identity" rights seriously)?

Have you never stopped to think about that? Or are you another of those who rationalise it as "institutional capture" and other such ludicrous conspiracy theories?
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Extensive and detailed evidence of why they are doing this has been posted on all incarnations of this thread since it started. You have never looked at or responded to any of it, The more evidence is posted, the more you retreat to tantrums and insults. You are completely impervious to reason and evidence.
 
LondonJohn said:
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender




https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X22001889




https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-gender-identities/




https://www.health.com/mind-body/gender-fluid



https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/...ghts-center/internal/policies/gender-identity


As I've explained many times already, "valid" is in effect a shorthand for "not a mental health disorder".
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Yes, we already know that 'gender therapists' and activists spout nonsense and the gender literature published in the last 10 years or so is full of it. That's how those of us who are actually qualified and who understand the difference between ideology and science recognise that the field is ideologically contaminated.
 
LondonJohn said:
Feel free to carry on with your bigoted beliefs about transgender identity. I'm off to clean the sewage off my hands and do something more productive. Ciao!
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Those are not my 'beliefs about transgender identity'; they are your nonsensical beliefs about identity and validity.
 
LondonJohn said:
Good lord. You seriously don't know the difference between gender dysphoria and transgender identity? I'm not sure this is the debate for you, in that case.

I'll try to make things clearer for you (though I've explained this more than once before in these threads). Imagine a teenage boy who figures out that he is gay. He starts to struggle with his sexual identity: he knows that his friends and family all present as heterosexual, and he worries about coming out as gay. His struggle and confusion is analogous to gender dysphoria - we might term it "sexuality dysphoria". And his identity as gay is analogous to transgender identity.
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You might call it "sexuality dysphoria", but that would be stupid and wrong, it's not an accurate description of anything to do with homosexuality. "Sexuality dysphoria" isn't a thing. Body dysphoria is a thing. In fact, it's several things. There are multiple kinds of body dysphoria, and none of them are sexuality. And gender dysphoria (which isn't well named, but it's not up to me) is absolutely a thing, and it is absolutely a disorder. Which is why some transgender people surgically modify their bodies, something sexuality doesn't require.

But what exactly does it mean to be "transgender" without body dysphoria? You didn't actually answer me. If you're "transgender" but you have no desire to alter your body, what does that even mean? Nothing you've said provides any insight.

You think you're trying to school me, but you're only revealing your own incoherence.
 
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Ziggurat said:
You might call it "sexuality dysphoria", but that would be stupid and wrong, it's not an accurate description of anything to do with homosexuality. "Sexuality dysphoria" isn't a thing. Body dysphoria is a thing. In fact, it's several things. There are multiple kinds of body dysphoria, and none of them are sexuality. And gender dysphoria (which isn't well named, but it's not up to me) is absolutely a thing, and it is absolutely a disorder. Which is why some transgender people surgically modify their bodies, something sexuality doesn't require.

But what exactly does it mean to be "transgender" without body dysphoria? You didn't actually answer me. If you're "transgender" but you have no desire to alter your body, what does that even mean? Nothing you've said provides any insight.

You think you're trying to school me, but you're only revealing your own incoherence.
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You don't understand this at all. Gender dysphoria is the internalised conflict a person with transgender identity might have between their sex assigned at birth and their trans gender. Not all people with transgender identity undergo gender dysphoria. Not all people with transgender identity undertake medical or surgical transition.

Incidentally:

The DSM–5 articulates explicitly that “gender non-conformity is not in itself a mental disorder".
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https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiat...onforming-patients/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis
 
Rolfe said:
Apparently when the GRA was passed last month the parliamentarians turned to Douglas, who was in the public gallery, and applauded him. Patrick Harvie (I think) said something about the bill being passed for Douglas personally.
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Correction, it was Alex Cole-Hamilton, a Liberal Democrat.

This makes me sick.
 
LondonJohn said:
You don't understand this at all. Gender dysphoria is the internalised conflict a person with transgender identity might have between their sex assigned at birth and their trans gender.
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It's not an "internalized conflict". It's a form of body disphoria. And sex isn't assigned at birth, it's observed. Any time anyone says "assigned at birth", that's a clear indication that they're an ideologue more concerned with toeing the party line than in dealing with facts.

Not all people with transgender identity undergo gender dysphoria.
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I know that. I didn't suggest otherwise. But what the **** does that even mean? If you're male, and you're comfortable with your male body and don't want to change it, what the hell does it mean to think you're a woman?

Not all people with transgender identity undertake medical or surgical transition.
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I know that too.

So why do we need to give males without dysphoria access to female spaces? Where's the logic?
 
LondonJohn said:
Not all people with transgender identity undergo gender dysphoria.
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Can you provide an example of someone who (1) identifies as transgender, (2) has never experienced gender dysphoria, and (3) ought to be affirmed and validated in some specific way?

I'm particularly interested in the third criterion here. Beyond pronouns, what sort of social validation do you have in mind for someone who doesn't need to physically transition in order to relieve the experience of dysphoria? Do they get to enter locker rooms and leagues created for the opposite sex? If so, why? Are they suffering from something other than dysphoria which makes such accommodations reasonable?
 
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LondonJohn said:
Feel free to carry on with your bigoted beliefs about transgender identity. I'm off to clean the sewage off my hands and do something more productive. Ciao!
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LJ, I agree with you on some things, but the complete lack of substance in your reply above doesn't speak well for your position.
 
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