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Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

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Wings is telling everyone that he has some red-hot exposé coming out at eight in the morning. Something to do with the SNP and Green elected representatives knowin exactly what sort of scumbags they are in bed with I think.

www.wingsoverscotland.com
 
In my part of the woods, In-n-Out Burger wont have any non conforming genders, or tattoos, or long hair on men, or beards, or purple hair.
Yeah, I can't really get behind that. Thankfully, I live in Sonic country.

I'll give you movies and theater, though. Appearances really do matter sometimes.
 
Yeah, I can't really get behind that. Thankfully, I live in Sonic country.

I'll give you movies and theater, though. Appearances really do matter sometimes.


Do you think "In-n-Out Burger" should be compelled by law to employ people who choose to adopt extremely unconventional styles of appearance?
 
Wings is telling everyone that he has some red-hot exposé coming out at eight in the morning. Something to do with the SNP and Green elected representatives knowin exactly what sort of scumbags they are in bed with I think.

www.wingsoverscotland.com

Now up
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-grooming-of-holyrood/

The main focus, Beth Douglas, seems very peripheral but has done something with the Scottish Greens, and is photographed recently (22.12.22) with Maggie Chapman.

What emerges, however, is a rather graphic portrait of Extremely Online trans activists complete with fund-raisers for medical care, expulsions and dissolutions of groups, repeated fantasies of violence, posing with knives and axes, and reports from former partners of abuse. The normalisation of violence in this little milieu is the most startling aspect; it's more the sustained repetition of it (throatpunching TERFs a recurrent meme) rather than any particular example, since there have been far worse (cough 'decapitate TERFs' cough).

Wings' commentary unsurprisingly labels Douglas as sociopathic and mentally ill; in the everyday sense of observe-a-loon these are fair comments, not diagnoses. This is how Douglas comes across to an outsider: someone so far down a rabbit hole they may not even realise how they look, and might not care.

Note that I'm saying everyday sense; one cannot diagnose remotely over the internet, but one can still draw conclusions and back away as fast as possible from someone who comes across as a headcase. The sheer amount of social media and interpersonal drama swirling around one individual is rather impressive, and I'm basing that on interacting with a variety of nutcases (again: in the everyday sense) on the internet for 17-18 years. Back then, one might find that a particular internet troll had serial form trolling different forums on different topics, or invented multiple socks to peddle a particular obsession, and those types are still around. The advent of social media simply amplified this into a hall of selfie mirrors and bitter exchanges.

The personalities discussed are so Extremely Online and so self-important that generalising from them to all trans activists or all trans women would be wrong. But the levels of engagement in those groups are so high that the phenomenon is not a one-off. Trans online culture seems acutely narcissistic and toxic, even set against the generally narcissistic and toxic social media cultures of this era. I don't see a lot of difference between this culture and the MAGA online culture that gave us January 6th and a variety of domestic terrorist acts. It's likely the smaller size of the trans culture that is why the acts of violence tend to be disproportionately sexual offenses and common assaults at demonstrations. The more progressive orientation plus these examples being in the UK would also be why we've not seen more cases of these rage monsters going postal and shooting up crowds.

Again: one case does not invalidate LJ's 'valid identity' mantra, but this one case shows someone whose supposedly 'valid identity' is a license for serial abuse, at the very least rhetorical and verbal, and likely also interpersonal going by the trail of broken relationships left in this guy's wake.

It'd be nice to think that in a few years, trans culture will have self-diagnosed the toxicity of this era and cleaned itself up. Other subcultures managed, why can't they?
 
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I read an archived link yesterday for free. I didn't save the tweet with the link, but it's there somewhere.
 
Do you think "In-n-Out Burger" should be compelled by law to employ people who choose to adopt extremely unconventional styles of appearance?
I thought we were talking about discrimination based on birth sex or gender expression incongruous therewith.

If so, I'd say that sometimes there is a decent argument for a BFOQWP but those legal exceptions ought to remain rare and narrow. Most any job at a burger joint can be performed by a woman in a men's uniform or vice-versa.
 
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I thought we were talking about the potential for protecting "gender expression" to be misused by kooks and weirdos. If you're not careful, a law that was intended to prevent someone being fired purely for being transgender (your man in a woman's uniform or vice versa) ends up forcing, say, a school to go on employing a teacher who has decided to turn up for work wearing exploding milk bombs.
 
I thought we were talking about the potential for protecting "gender expression" to be misused by kooks and weirdos. If you're not careful, a law that was intended to prevent someone being fired purely for being transgender (your man in a woman's uniform or vice versa) ends up forcing, say, a school to go on employing a teacher who has decided to turn up for work wearing exploding milk bombs.
All the school district had to do is create/enforce a (sex & gender neutral) rule against obscenely distracting prosthetic devices. If you're wearing a foot-long strap-on under yoga pants, your sex at birth shouldn't really matter.
 
I don't want to get back on to that weirdo again, but it does demonstrate the potential for abuse of well-intentioned legislation. If you enshrine "gender expression" into law as a protected characteristic, someone is going to take advantage. I think it's far better left to individual employers to codify and enforce their own standards commensurate with the requirements of the business they are running, rather than passing legislation that could have the effect of forcing employers to put up with exploding milk bombs. Or indeed blue hair, piercings and inappropriate makeup.
 
Now up
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-grooming-of-holyrood/

The main focus, Beth Douglas, seems very peripheral but has done something with the Scottish Greens, and is photographed recently (22.12.22) with Maggie Chapman.


I think the issue isn't Beth Douglas himself, but the influence he and others like him have on the Scottish government. He's not the first. There was another extremely misogynist individual called Leeze Lawrence who was positively feted by Nicola Sturgeon despite a seriously sleazy background. He died, cause of death not known but rumours it was drug-related. Sturgeon lamented the passing of "a force for good". There are others.

Apparently when the GRA was passed last month the parliamentarians turned to Douglas, who was in the public gallery, and applauded him. Patrick Harvie (I think) said something about the bill being passed for Douglas personally.

Today Sturgeon has been extremely mealy-mouthed in her condemnation of the "decapitate terfs" sign, simply criticising the "tone" and declaring that the other side have said things about her that are just as bad. (The worst I have seen displayed about her is "destroyer of women's rights".) In the past when SNP elected representatives have been accused of anything, even minor and even unproven, they've been thrown to the wolves unmercifully, allegedly on the grounds that nothing must be allowed to tarnish the respectability of the independence movement. Michelle Thompson lost the whip because of unfounded allegations that were subsequently disproved. Someone else ditto because of an very mild transgression related to predictive text on a phone.

But now we're seeing actual sex offenders being protected and all sorts of excuses being made for overt threats of violence being made and endorsed by people who are in her favoured cabal. Scottish politics and our senior politicians seem to be absolutely in thrall to a bunch of perverted weirdos whom even the mainstream trans community is trying to distance itself from.
 
I don't want to get back on to that weirdo again, but it does demonstrate the potential for abuse of well-intentioned legislation. If you enshrine "gender expression" into law as a protected characteristic, someone is going to take advantage.
Canadians notwithstanding, it really shouldn't be that hard to differentiate between outsized and arguably obscene prosthetic devices and ordinary expressions of femininity such as eye make up, long hair, or pleated skirts. Sensible laws and district regulations have to be written with human judgment in the loop.
 
Canadians notwithstanding, it really shouldn't be that hard to differentiate between outsized and arguably obscene prosthetic devices and ordinary expressions of femininity such as eye make up, long hair, or pleated skirts. Sensible laws and district regulations have to be written with human judgment in the loop.

You're right, it shouldn't be that hard.

But there seems to be a drive to eliminate even the concept of obscenity.
 
Again: one case does not invalidate LJ's 'valid identity' mantra


Erm.... it's not my "valid identity" mantra. It's mainstream medicine's "valid identity" mantra.

I remain surprised that so many people within this debate appear so ignorant of this extremely important fact. And I wonder why so many appear so ignorant of it. After all, mainstream medicine's current viewpoint - that transgender identity is a valid condition (ie it is not a mental health disorder) - is pretty much the entire reason why progressive legislatures throughout the world are now moving to enshrine & protect transgender rights.
 
Erm.... it's not my "valid identity" mantra. It's mainstream medicine's "valid identity" mantra.

I remain surprised that so many people within this debate appear so ignorant of this extremely important fact. And I wonder why so many appear so ignorant of it. After all, mainstream medicine's current viewpoint - that transgender identity is a valid condition (ie it is not a mental health disorder) - is pretty much the entire reason why progressive legislatures throughout the world are now moving to enshrine & protect transgender rights.

You keep making this claim about "valid condition", but you cannot ever back it up.

Gender dysphoria is a disorder. It causes distress, and it requires treatment. That's pretty much the definition of a disorder. I don't even know what transgenderism without gender dysphoria means, but if it doesn't cause distress and it doesn't require treatment, then I don't see that it requires any accommodation either.
 
But now we're seeing actual sex offenders being protected and all sorts of excuses being made for overt threats of violence being made and endorsed by people who are in her favoured cabal. Scottish politics and our senior politicians seem to be absolutely in thrall to a bunch of perverted weirdos whom even the mainstream trans community is trying to distance itself from.


Yeah. That all sounds perfectly possible. And not the product of ridiculous, untenable and unsupported conspiracy theory.

It's so wondrous to see anti-transgender activists stretch this ludicrous "policy capture" idea like an elastic band, as a means of rationalising the fact that legislatures, governing bodies, regulators and medics all over the world are endorsing transgender rights. Yeah: all those bodies have somehow become so mesmerised that a) they become incapable of doing anything but to hypnotically enact whatever transgender activists direct them to do, and b) they become incapable of applying their own intellects and judgement to the matter.

Seriously. This is the anti-transgender activists' actual position.
 
You keep making this claim about "valid condition", but you cannot ever back it up.

Gender dysphoria is a disorder. It causes distress, and it requires treatment. That's pretty much the definition of a disorder. I don't even know what transgenderism without gender dysphoria means, but if it doesn't cause distress and it doesn't require treatment, then I don't see that it requires any accommodation either.


Good lord. You seriously don't know the difference between gender dysphoria and transgender identity? I'm not sure this is the debate for you, in that case.


I'll try to make things clearer for you (though I've explained this more than once before in these threads). Imagine a teenage boy who figures out that he is gay. He starts to struggle with his sexual identity: he knows that his friends and family all present as heterosexual, and he worries about coming out as gay. His struggle and confusion is analogous to gender dysphoria - we might term it "sexuality dysphoria". And his identity as gay is analogous to transgender identity.

His homosexuality - just as another person's transgender identity - is valid, and not a mental health condition. But his struggle to reveal and live his valid homosexual identity - just as another person struggles to come to terms with their valid transgender identity - is a distressing mental health disorder.
 
Erm.... it's not my "valid identity" mantra. It's mainstream medicine's "valid identity" mantra.
Does anyone in this mainstream medicine even use the fairly meaningless term "valid identity"? This seems to presuppose there are "invalid identities" out there - is this the case? Can you give some examples?

You appear to be presenting the false dichotomy between "valid identity" and mental illness. The logic being that if it's not a mental illness, then it is a "valid identity" (whatever that is).

Googling "valid identity" just brings up stuff about passports etc. Googling it with the term "gender dysphoria" brings up no mentions I can find. So if this term does exist in mainstream medicine, it can't be used that often.
 
Does anyone in this mainstream medicine even use the fairly meaningless term "valid identity"? This seems to presuppose there are "invalid identities" out there - is this the case? Can you give some examples?

You appear to be presenting the false dichotomy between "valid identity" and mental illness. The logic being that if it's not a mental illness, then it is a "valid identity" (whatever that is).

Googling "valid identity" just brings up stuff about passports etc. Googling it with the term "gender dysphoria" brings up no mentions I can find. So if this term does exist in mainstream medicine, it can't be used that often.


A person who identifies as an 18th Century French duke has an invalid identity. A person who identifies as an attack helicopter has an invalid identity.

A person who identifies as homosexual has a valid identity. A person who identifies as transgender has a valid identity.

You ought perhaps to read and understand DSM5. Just as the world's experts changed their position on homosexuality around 40 years ago - they went from considering homosexuality to be a mental health disorder to considering it a valid identity - they have now similarly changed their position on transgender identity such that they now no longer consider it a mental health disorder.

Do you not realise/understand why governments around the world are passing legislation to give transgender people rights (and why they are not passing legislation to give rights to people who think they are attack helicopters)? The answer is contained in the preceding paragraphs....
 
But his struggle to reveal and live his valid homosexual identity - just as another person struggles to come to terms with their valid transgender identity - is a distressing mental health disorder.
Nope.

"Persistent and marked distress about sexual orientation" was once in the DSM, but no longer.
 
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