Cont: The Biden Presidency (3)

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

But thanks, Joe Biden, for yet another gaffe, and this is a good one, at least in the Repubs eyes. I mean how much more perfect can you get? Of all the things that you could **** up...classified documents no less. That really really helps, dumbass.

This is absurd. It's like finding something in the attic you didn't know you had. That is not a gaffe.
But it doesn't matter, the GOP will turn anything into an outrage or whatever. Biden goes to the border—it wasn't soon enough.

Biden's comprehensive immigration bill is ignored by the GOP—Biden hasn't done anything about immigration.

The GOP Congress fails to fund security at the Benghazi embassy—Clinton was responsible.

A mob attacks the Capitol—Nancy's and Schumer's fault there was no backup.

You name it, the GOP propaganda fear mongering machine will twist anything ... anything and sometimes absolutely nothing into a news bite size repeatable point and the news media will eat it up (they can't help themselves despite swearing they will stop, like when Lucy swears this time she won't pull the football away Charlie Brown goes for the kick anyway.)

 

[acbytesla]

Just in case you're implying I'm making that argument I am not. You're probably not since I said that in my post but just in case

I just remember reading that in cases of improperly handled classified documents that the person is pretty much equally guilty whether or not it was an accident or deliberate. Maybe that turned out not to be true.

And really I am not happy about anyone mishandling classified documents. It's stupid no matter who does it and how. Evil & incompetence (Trump) vs simple incompetence hopefully (Biden)...neither is good.

I would think they would keep a record of what documents have been "borrowed" so that they can make sure to return them. Of all the things that need to be returned at the end of a term, classified documents should be top of the list.

We can say that the right wingers don't need to be emboldened anymore than they already are, but this is not helping matters.

We at ISF know the truth but what about everyone else? It's just another thing to fight and explain away.

I think the mistake you're making is that it wasn't BIDEN who did this. He did not move the material that included the ten documents to the University office. He did not pack them. He was unaware of the documents being in his office. The National Archives had never requested their return. On the other hand, Trump knew he had over 200 documents and refused to return them on several occasions, even declaring they were his.

As has been reported, this kind of things has happened several times before when former presidents and vice-presidents, their widows, and other high ranking politicians have accidentally removed documents. In all other cases, when discovered, they were returned with no charges being files. Innocent mistakes. If Trump had returned all the documents when first requested, it would have been handled the same way and it would never have been an issue. His decision to keep them and lie about it resulting in possible criminal charges is his own fault.

This.

Was my point.

One can be guilty of being reckless as opposed to being deliberately criminal. This is where some individuals are convicted of a crime involving the mishandling of documents. But the DOJ etc doesn't have an interest in putting people in jail for honest and innocent mistakes.

As I said before the reason Trump is guilty of mishandling the documents, is because the act wasn't an innocent oversight, it was deliberate. I find this event to be fortunate since it demonstrates a clear difference between responsibility and irresponsibility.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

To offer a slight bit of praise for the oratory of the new House Minority leader, I'll highlight a bit of his speech -

Yeah, even before this speech it appeared the chap was affectionate for alliteration. But used too much, which he sure does, it quickly turns into a grating gimmick.

“I love my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while.” - Groucho

 

[Aridas]

Didn't we determine in the Mar A Lago thread that intent is not a factor when it comes to the mishandling of classified documents? Trump possessed them, he's guilty, the end?

However, I now hear the DOJ (or FBI?) talking about intent with Trump. I believe they recently said they believed he kept them probably as souvenirs.

Does intent matter or not? Trump sure did break a lot of laws trying to keep his so-called souvenirs by the way. Souvenirs my arse.

To add a little to what the others have said, I think that it's worth noting that intent is a factor for some purposes and is not a factor for other purposes. Trump had nuclear code documents hidden away, for example? Yeah, there's pretty much no need to even touch on intent there for the general public to deem that to be a massive national security threat, a threat that's only amplified by his history of seriously undermining our national security across the board. When it comes to law, though, intent can matter a bit more. For example - 18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

Trump is rather clearly and overtly violating that, by all reasonable measures. Biden? No evidence has been put forth that he's actually violated such.

To poke elsewhere at something that may be of relevance -

Trump Made It A Felony To Mishandle Classified Documents In 2018, which may well be of direct relevance to any investigation that involves whether Biden could be charged of actions before then.

 

[Aridas]

To poke a bit about amount of coverage -

It is amazing but true: the coverage of the Biden document story by Fox News has been more restrained and responsible than has CNN’s. The desperate attempt to position the Think Tank Papers story as one that — in the words of a CNN commentator — “almost exonerates” Trump, continued last night. The raw numbers are startling: between 5 and 11 PM ET Monday, MSNBC gave the story 14 minutes, Fox News gave it 29 minutes, and CNN gave it 107 MINUTES.

 

[Delvo]

Well, Biden-backers need to have something to talk about to distract from his trumping up his border policy even trumpier than Trump's, or his calling the Salvation Army the Secret Service.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Given the details currently known, we can't rule out that the documents found are the ones Trump still hasn't returned.

 

[Suddenly]

What we will see is an impeachment where the House uses a dodgy interpretation of 18 U.S. Code 793(e).

Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it...

The idea being that, well...

Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation,

The claim being that of course top secret stuff could be used injure the US and/or aid a foreign power. Biden had this stuff when he wasn't authorized.

willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it

He delivered it to himself, no?

Of course this is an absurd interpretation as the passage in whole is about understanding that transmitting/delivering the information knowing it can hurt US interests. Not to mention proving that he actually possessed it at all.

I'm just saying get used to hearing this sort of thing.

 

[Stacyhs]

Well, Biden-backers need to have something to talk about to distract from his trumping up his border policy even trumpier than Trump's, or his calling the Salvation Army the Secret Service.

Well, you might be more honest and also report that he caught and corrected himself immediately. The interesting question is, "Why didn't you?"

Slips of the tongue are normal. My husband is notorious for using the wrong word. He'll say things like, "I put the dirty clothes in the dishwasher," when he meant to say "washing machine". We've all used the wrong word/s then caught ourselves.

For example:

"For seven and a half years, I've worked alongside President Reagan," President George H.W. Bush once declared. "We've had triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex... uh...setbacks."

Ted Kennedy: "Our national interest ought to be to encourage the breast...
the best and brightest."

Barrack Obama: "Let me introduce to you the next President—the next Vice President of the United States of America, Joe Biden."

Then there's Donald Trump: “I watched our police and our firemen down on 7-Eleven, down at the World Trade Center, right after it came down, and I saw the greatest people I’ve ever seen in action.”

"I met with the President of the Virgin Islands." (the VI have a governor)

"(Parents) “sacrifice for the furniture and future of their children.”

And there are oh, so many more made by Trump.

 

[mgidm86]

I don't need the fact that the Trump and Biden situations are different explained to me.

Every time I argue anything against Biden lately it seems that people assume I am for Trump or that I don't understand the nuances of the situation.

What I'm saying is this is not a good look right now for Democrats and I'm getting blowback for it. The REPUBLICANS will seize this opportunity to do what they do and that is to take as much advantage of this as they can.

That is all.

It is wise to avoid giving any more ammunition to the Republicans. It doesn't matter what their base already believes or what Trump has done. Disagree?

If we want things to get better in this country BOTH sides need to be involved. Part of what the Dems want to do is win over Republican voters. This incident does not help because Fox etc will be all over this. Disagree?

Gawd forbid I want the Democrats to be wise about how they tread.

Do we care who left the Top Secret documents in Trump's office or do we just want to see Trump fry for it regardless because he was the boss? That's what I thought.

Isn't there a thread here about the buck stopping at the top? It was Biden's office. Sorry but if this were Trump that is the argument we would make.

Do people here think that optics are not a thing Democrats should worry about anymore?

I ask myself constantly - what would I think if the other side did it? If I were Fox News I'd use it against them any way I could.

That is all. Biden is still the good guy.

 

[Stacyhs]

CNN is reporting that more documents have been found at another location by Biden lawyers and turned over. Little info on it, including where this other location is.

ETA: at a press conference:

Fox News' Peter Doocy pointed to Biden calling Trump's retention of classified documents "totally irresponsible" and asked, "How can President Biden be trusted moving forward with America's secrets?"

Jean-Pierre responded: "Because his lawyers, his team, did the right thing."

(Business Insider)

Does anyone else find Doocy's idiocy as funny as I do?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

CNN is reporting that more documents have been found at another location by Biden lawyers and turned over. Little info on it, including where this other location is.

ETA: at a press conference:


(Business Insider)

Does anyone else find Doocy's idiocy as funny as I do?

It was funnier when Psaki trolled him.

It is wise to avoid giving any more ammunition to the Republicans. It doesn't matter what their base already believes or what Trump has done. Disagree?

If we want things to get better in this country BOTH sides need to be involved. Part of what the Dems want to do is win over Republican voters. This incident does not help because Fox etc will be all over this. Disagree?

How do you propose (in hindsight even) this could have been avoided?

How do you propose it be handled by Biden now?

I propose the Democrats get a good sound-bite going and send out one of those talking points memos so all the legislators interviewed by the press repeat the same thing. Send out the Sunday talk show crew. Make sure the memo is written in disappearing ink.

But all this nonsense that suggests this was a gaffe that could have been avoided is unrealistic. So yes I disagree with you.

 

[varwoche]

How do you propose it be handled by Biden now?

I propose the Democrats get a good sound-bite going and send out one of those talking points memos so all the legislators interviewed by the press repeat the same thing. Send out the Sunday talk show crew. Make sure the memo is written in disappearing ink.

I propose that Biden owns up and falls on his sword...

My team discovered the documents. Unlike the former president, we reported it to the authorities and we've cooperated at every step. But that's no excuse. I urge DOJ to appoint a special prosecutor. I will not run for reelection.​

He's exceeded the acceptable risk threshhold.The dotard must step aside.

 

[Tero]

Were they with old National Geographics in his garage?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I propose that Biden owns up and falls on his sword...

My team discovered the documents. Unlike the former president, we reported it to the authorities and we've cooperated at every step. But that's no excuse. I urge DOJ to appoint a special prosecutor. I will not run for reelection.​

He's exceeded the acceptable risk threshhold.The dotard must step aside.

Did you forget a sarcasm emoji for we sarcasm challenged folk or did you fall down the false equivalency rabbit hole in your rage?

 

[johnny karate]

I propose that Biden owns up and falls on his sword...

My team discovered the documents. Unlike the former president, we reported it to the authorities and we've cooperated at every step. But that's no excuse. I urge DOJ to appoint a special prosecutor. I will not run for reelection.​

He's exceeded the acceptable risk threshhold.The dotard must step aside.

Own up to what?

There’s no evidence that Biden was aware of any of this. It’s not like he moves his own things in and out of these offices. The National Archives wasn’t even aware that these documents were missing, and that’s kind of their whole job.

The smart thing to do - the only thing to do - is to let the investigation run its course and let the results speak for themselves.

 

[varwoche]

Did you forget a sarcasm emoji for we sarcasm challenged folk or did you fall down the false equivalency rabbit hole in your rage?

Neither. Definitely not equivalent. But yet a worsening reelection risk.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Own up to what?

There’s no evidence that Biden was aware of any of this. It’s not like he moves his own things in and out of these offices. The National Archives wasn’t even aware that these documents were missing, and that’s kind of their whole job.

The smart thing to do - the only thing to do - is to let the investigation run its course and let the results speak for themselves.

A person should probably know what is in their office....they are.not that big.

 

[mgidm86]

It was funnier when Psaki trolled him.


How do you propose (in hindsight even) this could have been avoided?
How do you propose it be handled by Biden now?

I propose the Democrats get a good sound-bite going and send out one of those talking points memos so all the legislators interviewed by the press repeat the same thing. Send out the Sunday talk show crew. Make sure the memo is written in disappearing ink.

But all this nonsense that suggests this was a gaffe that could have been avoided is unrealistic. So yes I disagree with you.

Who needs hindsight? Hmm let's see....don't forget to return classified docume...oh I'm sorry, it's Top Secret documents now, when your term is over.

Seems like a pretty important thing to remember, yes? What could be more important than this?

I have to come up with a solution for handling Top Secret documents? School libraries do a better job.

You keep a list of documents you have borrowed, then you check that list later. Seriously, that's difficult?

I think Biden handled it fine after the fact. Then again, they were found before the midterm election back in November but nobody informed the public until now.

Huh. More ammo for the Right. Yes, it matters.

Now the Republicans are saying, "Look how easy it is for a President to make a mistake with Classified material...." while we are trying to nail Trump for doing exactly that, and yes much more, but they both mishandled classified material, whether it was they themselves or someone who worked for them.

Trump is rightly criticized for his handling of these types of documents, meaning having them in an unsecured location. I am holding Biden to the same standard.

The documents, the president said, were found in “a box, locked cabinet – or at least a closet.”

Good answer! No, we wouldn't jump all over Trump for that, not at all.

 

[mgidm86]

Own up to what?

There’s no evidence that Biden was aware of any of this. It’s not like he moves his own things in and out of these offices. The National Archives wasn’t even aware that these documents were missing, and that’s kind of their whole job.

The smart thing to do - the only thing to do - is to let the investigation run its course and let the results speak for themselves.

That has nothing to do with it.

These documents were discovered two months ago November 2nd. We are just being told now.

My point is that these are points (everything I've said) that Republicans are going to make.

"Biden had them in multiple locations!"
"Biden says "in a closet maybe""
"Biden is a hypocrite now"
"It wasn't Trumps fault, it's the system"
"All President do it"
"They hid all of this until after the midterms"

If people don't think that matters then fine. It matters to me. This makes it more difficult to nail Trump, mainly politically. That is all.