Cont: The Biden Presidency (3)

[Stacyhs]

BREAKING NEWS! (really)

You'll know it when you hear it. I for one said "Oh ****, here we go..."

Oh, yeah....can't wait to hear the right-wing try and equate this to Trump's Mar-a-Lago case because you KNOW it's what they're going to do.

The differences are:

1. When the under a dozen documents from the time of Biden's vice-presidency were discovered in Biden's Univ. of PA office when it was being cleaned out, the Archives was immediately informed by Biden's lawyers, and they were turned over. There was no effort to hide them. No effort to keep them from being turned over.

2. Who packed the documents in the box and took them to the Univ. office is not known. It's not known if Biden was even aware of them.

The GOP will be screaming about how this is no different than what Trump did, but it is. Trump KNEW he had them and did everything he could to keep them. Biden did not.

ETA: Trump also moved boxes of documents AFTER he had been told to give all documents to the Archives. Trump's lawyer wrote that all documents had been turned over; they hadn't. The DOJ had to get warrants to search because Trump was not cooperating. But this won't stop the GOP from claiming Trump's case is equivalent to Biden's.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Oh, yeah....can't wait to hear the right-wing try and equate this to Trump's Mar-a-Lago case because you KNOW it's what they're going to do.

The differences are:

1. When the under a dozen documents from the time of Biden's vice-presidency were discovered in Biden's Univ. of PA office when it was being cleaned out, the Archives was immediately informed by Biden's lawyers, and they were turned over. There was no effort to hide them. No effort to keep them from being turned over.

2. Who packed the documents in the box and took them to the Univ. office is not known. It's not known if Biden was even aware of them.

The GOP will be screaming about how this is no different than what Trump did, but it is. Trump KNEW he had them and did everything he could to keep them. Biden did not.

ETA: Trump also moved boxes of documents AFTER he had been told to give all documents to the Archives. Trump's lawyer wrote that all documents had been turned over; they hadn't. The DOJ had to get warrants to search because Trump was not cooperating. But this won't stop the GOP from claiming Trump's case is equivalent to Biden's.

If those differences are meaningful in assessing equivalence is subjective. They are not necessarily wrong if they say it is equivalent.

But legally the guilty mind requirement would resolve that one

 

[Stacyhs]

And so it begins:

McCarthy: "How ironic. Just now found them after all these years?"

No implication there, amirite, Kevino? If Biden knew they were there after before 'all these years', he'd have gotten rid of them either legally or illegally well before now.

Trump is guilty of obstruction. Biden has cooperated fully.

 

[mgidm86]

Investigate it. I always tell people that if there was proof of election fraud I would want the Dems investigated just as much as Republicans. Here ya go.

I'm sure this is probably nothing and I don't need to explain how Trump is different than Biden. But so as not to give Repubs the gotcha they think they have....

Investigate! By all means! Just shut up about Trump.

 

[Stacyhs]

Investigate it. I always tell people that if there was proof of election fraud I would want the Dems investigated just as much as Republicans. Here ya go.

I'm sure this is probably nothing and I don't need to explain how Trump is different than Biden. But so as not to give Repubs the gotcha they think they have....

Investigate! By all means! Just shut up about Trump.

They are investigating it out of an abundance of caution and because of the Trump case. No Dems or Biden are attempting to stop it.

 

[mgidm86]

They are investigating it out of an abundance of caution and because of the Trump case. No Dems or Biden are attempting to stop it.

I know. Just trying to say that if any Republican I know says, "Look at Biden now, why don't you investigate HIM!?" I will say, "we should", just to watch their reaction and end the discussion.

I do wish this didn't happen, but then again Fox viewers are already bought and paid for. Nobody else will care really. Whayagonnado

 

[bruto]

If those differences are meaningful in assessing equivalence is subjective. They are not necessarily wrong if they say it is equivalent.

But legally the guilty mind requirement would resolve that one

If you are saying there might be a common offense of which both are guilty, perhaps, but overall equivalence would mean that you believe hiding and not hiding are the same thing, lying and not lying the same thing, cooperation and obstruction the same thing. I don't think they are no matter what someone says.

 

[Aridas]

Oh, yeah....can't wait to hear the right-wing try and equate this to Trump's Mar-a-Lago case because you KNOW it's what they're going to do.

The differences are:

1. When the under a dozen documents from the time of Biden's vice-presidency were discovered in Biden's Univ. of PA office when it was being cleaned out, the Archives was immediately informed by Biden's lawyers, and they were turned over. There was no effort to hide them. No effort to keep them from being turned over.

2. Who packed the documents in the box and took them to the Univ. office is not known. It's not known if Biden was even aware of them.

The GOP will be screaming about how this is no different than what Trump did, but it is. Trump KNEW he had them and did everything he could to keep them. Biden did not.

ETA: Trump also moved boxes of documents AFTER he had been told to give all documents to the Archives. Trump's lawyer wrote that all documents had been turned over; they hadn't. The DOJ had to get warrants to search because Trump was not cooperating. But this won't stop the GOP from claiming Trump's case is equivalent to Biden's.

There's also the difference where Trump is claiming that the documents are his property, the sheer number of documents, the difference in how secure the location(s) they were kept in actually was...

I do support investigating the situation as a matter of course, but the two situations are obviously nowhere close to the same. I rather expect any media under GOP leadership to try to play things up like crazy, though, and give it waaaaay more airtime than Trump's dramatically more serious situation received, at least for comparable events.

 

[BobTheCoward]

If you are saying there might be a common offense of which both are guilty, perhaps, but overall equivalence would mean that you believe hiding and not hiding are the same thing, lying and not lying the same thing, cooperation and obstruction the same thing. I don't think they are no matter what someone says.

One could absolutely think those are meaningless differences compared to the gravity of the offense.

 

[Darat]

One could absolutely think those are meaningless differences compared to the gravity of the offense.

What offense?

 

[BobTheCoward]

What offense?

It applies to anything the person regards as an offense. What constitutes an offense is also subjective

 

[Suddenly]

What offense?

That's the question. If it seems to be a matter of intent at this point. Sometimes negligence is enough to establish criminal intent. Federal criminal law is such a mess that it can be hard to avoid breaking it to some degree just by waking up in the morning. There has been a bipartisan approach to very broadly describe crimes and make enforcement a matter of prosecutorial discretion. It's horrifying, really.

That said, the idea they are anywhere close in degree is completely off. Biden isn't, as far as we can tell, actively obstructing an investigation. That alone makes all the difference in the world.

 

[bruto]

It applies to anything the person regards as an offense. What constitutes an offense is also subjective

It is in your personal opinion, but not in the law itself. The law is subjective too, of course, but not individually so, and with a degree of consistency that individuals do not need to show.

Of course you can decide that anything is an offense to your way of thinking. We have had posters here who consider drag queens an offense against decency, Lizzo's twerking an offense against just about everything up to God, etc., but there are still some laws that discriminate between the subjectivity of individuals and that of whole societies.

 

[johnny karate]

On classified docs, GOP fails again to find a parallel for Trump

Salient point for all those making the extra effort to not understand:

It’s not illegal to accidentally have classified documents; it’s illegal to take them and refuse to give them back.

That being said, this matter should be thoroughly and transparently investigated, as it seems to already be.

 

[Stacyhs]

Even though the comparison is ludicrous, that isn't stopping some GOP. McCarthy had the typical GOP hutzpah to say:

“I just think it goes to prove what they tried to do to President Trump overplayed their hand on that,” McCarthy said.

“They’ve been around even longer,” McCarthy said of Biden’s team. “President Trump had never been in office before and had just left, came out. Here’s an individual spent his last 40 years in office.”

McCarthy added: “It just shows that they were trying to be political with President Trump.”

LOL! What a dishonest rationalization!

 

[acbytesla]

The difference between these events is monstrous.


It's not just that Trump had Secret documents that is troubling. It's not even that they were not secured properly. It's the willful obstruction that went on for more than a year.


Trump knew he had them and retained them, refused to return them, fought returning them, said that they belonged to him which they did not. The National Archives attempted to secure the documents for more than a year before obtaining a search warrant.

Biden was unaware that he possessed them and upon being aware, alerted the National Archives immediately to have them returned.

 

[mgidm86]

That's the question. If it seems to be a matter of intent at this point. Sometimes negligence is enough to establish criminal intent. Federal criminal law is such a mess that it can be hard to avoid breaking it to some degree just by waking up in the morning. There has been a bipartisan approach to very broadly describe crimes and make enforcement a matter of prosecutorial discretion. It's horrifying, really.

That said, the idea they are anywhere close in degree is completely off. Biden isn't, as far as we can tell, actively obstructing an investigation. That alone makes all the difference in the world.

Didn't we determine in the Mar A Lago thread that intent is not a factor when it comes to the mishandling of classified documents? Trump possessed them, he's guilty, the end?

However, I now hear the DOJ (or FBI?) talking about intent with Trump. I believe they recently said they believed he kept them probably as souvenirs.

Does intent matter or not? Trump sure did break a lot of laws trying to keep his so-called souvenirs by the way. Souvenirs my arse.

Of course I know the two cases are not nearly the same, but I can't hand wave it away either without being a hypocrite and giving the right ammunition. Like I said...go ahead and investigate. There's nothing there to find.

The Repubs can't complain about investigating Trump if they insist that Biden needs to be looked into as well. I'm not sure what their response has been, haven't noticed.

But thanks, Joe Biden, for yet another gaffe, and this is a good one, at least in the Repubs eyes. I mean how much more perfect can you get? Of all the things that you could **** up...classified documents no less. That really really helps, dumbass.

 

[acbytesla]

Didn't we determine in the Mar A Lago thread that intent is not a factor when it comes to the mishandling of classified documents? Trump possessed them, he's guilty, the end?

However, I now hear the DOJ (or FBI?) talking about intent with Trump. I believe they recently said they believed he kept them probably as souvenirs.

Does intent matter or not? Trump sure did break a lot of laws trying to keep his so-called souvenirs by the way. Souvenirs my arse.

Of course I know the two cases are not nearly the same, but I can't hand wave it away either without being a hypocrite and giving the right ammunition. Like I said...go ahead and investigate. There's nothing there to find.

The Repubs can't complain about investigating Trump if they insist that Biden needs to be looked into as well. I'm not sure what their response has been, haven't noticed.

But thanks, Joe Biden, for yet another gaffe, and this is a good one, at least in the Repubs eyes. I mean how much more perfect can you get? Of all the things that you could **** up...classified documents no less. That really really helps, dumbass.

Who said "intent doesn't matter?" Mens Rea is a very important factor in almost every crime.

For more than a year, the public was pretty much unaware of the secret documents that Trump possessed. Why? It wasn't because the National Archives and other government agencies weren't aware that Trump had them, it was because Trump was obstinate and deliberate deception and obstruction. Deception and obstruction that went on for more than a year.

The argument that Biden's offense was something similar is ridiculous.

 

[mgidm86]

Who said "intent doesn't matter?" Mens Rea is a very important factor in almost every crime.

For more than a year, the public was pretty much unaware of the secret documents that Trump possessed. Why? It wasn't because the National Archives and other government agencies weren't aware that Trump had them, it was because Trump was obstinate and deliberate deception and obstruction. Deception and obstruction that went on for more than a year.

The argument that Biden's offense was something similar is ridiculous.

Just in case you're implying I'm making that argument I am not. You're probably not since I said that in my post but just in case

I just remember reading that in cases of improperly handled classified documents that the person is pretty much equally guilty whether or not it was an accident or deliberate. Maybe that turned out not to be true.

And really I am not happy about anyone mishandling classified documents. It's stupid no matter who does it and how. Evil & incompetence (Trump) vs simple incompetence hopefully (Biden)...neither is good.

I would think they would keep a record of what documents have been "borrowed" so that they can make sure to return them. Of all the things that need to be returned at the end of a term, classified documents should be top of the list.

We can say that the right wingers don't need to be emboldened anymore than they already are, but this is not helping matters.

We at ISF know the truth but what about everyone else? It's just another thing to fight and explain away.

 

[Stacyhs]

Just in case you're implying I'm making that argument I am not. You're probably not since I said that in my post but just in case

I just remember reading that in cases of improperly handled classified documents that the person is pretty much equally guilty whether or not it was an accident or deliberate. Maybe that turned out not to be true.

And really I am not happy about anyone mishandling classified documents. It's stupid no matter who does it and how. Evil & incompetence (Trump) vs simple incompetence hopefully (Biden)...neither is good.

I would think they would keep a record of what documents have been "borrowed" so that they can make sure to return them. Of all the things that need to be returned at the end of a term, classified documents should be top of the list.

We can say that the right wingers don't need to be emboldened anymore than they already are, but this is not helping matters.

We at ISF know the truth but what about everyone else? It's just another thing to fight and explain away.

I think the mistake you're making is that it wasn't BIDEN who did this. He did not move the material that included the ten documents to the University office. He did not pack them. He was unaware of the documents being in his office. The National Archives had never requested their return. On the other hand, Trump knew he had over 200 documents and refused to return them on several occasions, even declaring they were his.

As has been reported, this kind of things has happened several times before when former presidents and vice-presidents, their widows, and other high ranking politicians have accidentally removed documents. In all other cases, when discovered, they were returned with no charges being files. Innocent mistakes. If Trump had returned all the documents when first requested, it would have been handled the same way and it would never have been an issue. His decision to keep them and lie about it resulting in possible criminal charges is his own fault.