Jewish advocate wants Perth trader in 'Nazi' memorabilia closed down

[bluesjnr]

Well. Luckily the law does have something to say about this, specifically article 137e of the Dutch criminal law. Anybody of 'law and order', should recognize this as being a compelling rreason.

But even if this would not be the case. Some people hide so much behind the concept about what they 'could do' instead of what they 'should do'.

Us common decent people do recognize these kinds of people for the filth that they are and indeed don't want anything to do with them.
And if really needed, we can always verbally 'spit them in the face'. Or literal, that is of course also always an option.

Can you elaborate, I couldn't find this online?

Secondly, are you advocating violent acts upon people whose pastimes you find repugnant?

 

[erwinl]

...and other people who collect the same sorts of things are not scumbags.

You are making judgements against people based on no evidence other than your own prejudices.

yeah I have a prejudice here.

If I see two groups of people One group containing (neo)nazis as well as their fanboys and the other group containing their victims, both the untold millions of dead, but also the people used as slaves by the nazis as well as decent people who have decided 'never again nazis!' Then I know which side I prefer.

 

[erwinl]

Can you elaborate, I couldn't find this online?

Secondly, are you advocating violent acts upon people whose pastimes you find repugnant?

Here's the link from the Dutch government.
(edit: You might have to scroll a bit up, though. It seems the website and the links to it are bit wonky)

You can read the (Google) translated version below.

Article 137e

91 for: Article 137e of: Article 137e of: Article 137e of: Article 137e Article 137e Article 137e

1 He who, other than for business reporting:

1°. publishes a statement that he knows or should reasonably suspect is offensive to a group of people because of their race, their religion or belief, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation or their physical, mental or mental disability, or incites hatred against or discrimination against people or acts of violence against person or property of people because of their race, their religion or belief, their gender, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation or their physical, mental or mental disability;

2°. an object in which, as he knows or should reasonably suspect, such a statement is contained, sends it to someone other than at his request, or distributes it or has it in stock for the purpose of publicizing that statement or distribution;

shall be liable to a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months or a fine of the third category.

2 If the act is committed by a person who makes a profession or habit of it or by two or more persons united, a term of imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine of the fourth category shall be imposed.

And no.
There are a lot of repugnant people, who I would simply avoid and want nothing to do with them, but otherwise leave in peace.

(neo)nazis and their fanboys, though? Why should we?

 

[bluesjnr]

Here's the link from the Dutch government.
(edit: You might have to scroll a bit up, though. It seems the website and the links to it are bit wonky)

You can read the (Google) translated version below.

Thank you. *This seems to address, amongst many other things, the potential actions of an avowed Nazi but not necessarily the actions of a Nazi memorabilia collector. I'm fairly confident that you are not making the case that they are both the same. You're not saying, for example, that smartcookys friend fits that bill... are you?

*IANAL obviously.

And no.
There are a lot of repugnant people, who I would simply avoid and want nothing to do with them, but otherwise leave in peace.

I thought that was the case.

(neo)nazis and their fanboys, though? Why should we?

We can recognise and rise above them and police their actions, not their thoughts. We should avoid treating them as Untermensch based on our consideration of their social inferiority and not, effectively, say to all, "you may spit on him or do violence upon him.". Goodness know where that kind of ideology might end up?

 

[smartcooky]

yeah I have a prejudice here.

If I see two groups of people One group containing (neo)nazis as well as their fanboys and the other group containing their victims, both the untold millions of dead, but also the people used as slaves by the nazis as well as decent people who have decided 'never again nazis!' Then I know which side I prefer.

Its not a matter of taking sides, its a matter of freedom. EVERY group of people contains sub-groups that are unsavory, dishonest or scumbags - among policemen there are honest cops and corrupt cops; among politicians there are good politicians and bad politicians; among sports people there are fair ones and there are cheats. We may not like it but that is the way life sucks sometimes.

It is not only grossly unfair to judge a whole group by the actions of the minority-worst of them, its is completely unacceptable; its tarring them all with the same brush. When you do that, you are doing EXACTLY what racists do, judging all black people by the behavior and actions of a small group of them; you are doing exactly what Islamophobes do, judging all members of that religion by the actions of a few terrorists. When you do this, you become the exact thing you are railing against!

 

[Darat]

There is of course a strong case for preserving artifacts, even those of regimes such as the Nazis as a matter of creating an accurate historic record. We do allow people to privately own the most appalling things - items from serial killers come to mind, so we probably shouldn't be looking at making a special case for Nazi artifacts simply because they were evil.

I do think, unlike a lot of the more unsavoury artifacts private collectors horde, Nazi artifacts pose a current risk to citizens in that they can be used to promote Nazism (they aren't required for promotion of Nazism and of course not all collectors of nazi artifacts want to promote Nazism) and Nazism is still a very dangerous ideology that as part of its tenets wants to kill millions of my fellow citizens.

I do think I would carve out one exception for nazi artifacts and that is not allowing replicas to be made and sold to the public (allowing for exceptions for the likes of museums, and other spaces where historical verisimilitude is required).

 

[erwinl]

Its not a matter of taking sides, its a matter of freedom. EVERY group of people contains sub-groups that are unsavory, dishonest or scumbags - among policemen there are honest cops and corrupt cops; among politicians there are good politicians and bad politicians; among sports people there are fair ones and there are cheats. We may not like it but that is the way life sucks sometimes.

It is not only grossly unfair to judge a whole group by the actions of the minority-worst of them, its is completely unacceptable; its tarring them all with the same brush. When you do that, you are doing EXACTLY what racists do, judging all black people by the behavior and actions of a small group of them; you are doing exactly what Islamophobes do, judging all members of that religion by the actions of a few terrorists. When you do this, you become the exact thing you are railing against!

This is so wrong, it must have been deliberate.

Black people, for instance, can't choose to be different and if one judges them all by what a minority group amongst them does, that is indeed about as wrong as it gets.
People, who self select to be, say, a neo nazi, do that of their own free will. They get judged by the fact they want to be a neo nazi, want to emulate the original nazis.

 

[Darat]

This is so wrong, it must have been deliberate.

Black people, for instance, can't choose to be different and if one judges them all by what a minority group amongst them does, that is indeed about as wrong as it gets.
People, who self select to be, say, a neo nazi, do that of their own free will. They get judged by the fact they want to be a neo nazi, want to emulate the original nazis.

I think you are misunderstanding smartcooky's point. What he means is that not all collectors of Nazi artifacts are themselves Nazis nor advocate in any way for Nazi ideology and just because some collectors are Nazis does not mean we should judge all Nazi artifacts collectors as being Nazis.

It is a fair point.

But (of course there is a but after such a statement....) I freely admit I would be suspicious of anyone who personally collects Nazi artifacts, especially if that is all they collect.

 

[erwinl]

I think you are misunderstanding smartcooky's point. What he means is that not all collectors of Nazi artifacts are themselves Nazis nor advocate in any way for Nazi ideology and just because some collectors are Nazis does not mean we should judge all Nazi artifacts collectors as being Nazis.

It is a fair point.

If that is true, than I will concede that point.

But (of course there is a but after such a statement....) I freely admit I would be suspicious of anyone who personally collects Nazi artifacts, especially if that is all they collect.

Exactly.

 

[erwinl]

Thank you. *This seems to address, amongst many other things, the potential actions of an avowed Nazi but not necessarily the actions of a Nazi memorabilia collector. I'm fairly confident that you are not making the case that they are both the same. You're not saying, for example, that smartcookys friend fits that bill... are you?

*IANAL obviously.




I thought that was the case.



We can recognise and rise above them and police their actions, not their thoughts. We should avoid treating them as Untermensch based on our consideration of their social inferiority and not, effectively, say to all, "you may spit on him or do violence upon him.". Goodness know where that kind of ideology might end up?

highlightedYou do run the risk of getting cought by this law, if the buying or selling of the memorabilia is in such a place where it can be seen by other people.
Same if you showcase the collection, in such a way, it can be seen from public spaces (the road in front of your house, for instance).

In both cases the law looks at it from the eyes of '.....that he knows or should reasonably suspect is offensive to a group of people because......'.
Getting convicted is not automatic, but you do have to defend yourself to the judge.

 

[BrettM]

'.....that he knows or should reasonably suspect is offensive to a group of people because......'

So why not ban the collecting of fur coats, because fur coat collections are offensive to animal lovers? Or ban eating meat in public places, because eating meat is offensive to vegetarians?

This is the point smartcooky was making. If you are a vegetarian, you can choose not to eat meat. But you shouldn't stop others from eating meat, if that is what they want to do.

 

[erwinl]

So why not ban the collecting of fur coats, because fur coat collections are offensive to animal lovers? Or ban eating meat in public places, because eating meat is offensive to vegetarians?

sigh.

'.......because of their race, their religion or belief, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation or their physical, mental or mental disability, or incites hatred against or discrimination against people or acts of violence against person or property of people because of their race, their religion or belief, their gender, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation or their physical, mental or mental disability'.

Being an animal lover does not appear in that list, as you could have seen in my post, where I quoted the entire article.
Although raising animals solely for the purpose for their fur, is forbidden now.

 

[BrettM]

I can think of four different groups of collectors of Nazi memorabilia.

1. The tattooed racist neo Nazi skinhead,
2. the history buff,
3. various museums and Holocaust memorial centres,
4. and investors, who hope to sell these objects at a later date for a good profit. (The links provided by smartcooky showed how much Hitler's paintings have appreciated over the years.)

So how does Dutch law differentiate between these four different groups of collectors? Does it lump them all together with a blanket ban? That would be dictatorial behaviour!

 

[ponderingturtle]

There is this story in Germany not very recently.

AH

Click on to see the type of paintings this artist painted. The guy was responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews and a few million others in what was euphemistically called 'The Final Solution'

He was very lucky he didn't die (someone moved the bomb before it went off) but he later died by his own hand anyway.

- - - - -

OK, I'm just having a bit of fun at your expense, but I trust the point is clear.

This guy in Finland collected this memorabilia and he was also a scumbag - he tried to murder the "foreigner" because he was a scumbag NOT because he was a collector.

Now people want to look at me weird for my collection of WWII Japanese skull trophies sent home by US marines. It's just collecting.

What next my souvenirs of body parts from lynching victims?

Why are people coming after traditional American collectibles?

 

[ponderingturtle]

...and other people who collect the same sorts of things are not scumbags.

You are making judgements against people based on no evidence other than your own prejudices.

Yea they might have those neonazi tattoos for any reason, hence you can not judge someone for them.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Its not a matter of taking sides, its a matter of freedom. EVERY group of people contains sub-groups that are unsavory, dishonest or scumbags - among policemen there are honest cops and corrupt cops; among politicians there are good politicians and bad politicians; among sports people there are fair ones and there are cheats. We may not like it but that is the way life sucks sometimes.

It is not only grossly unfair to judge a whole group by the actions of the minority-worst of them, its is completely unacceptable; its tarring them all with the same brush. When you do that, you are doing EXACTLY what racists do, judging all black people by the behavior and actions of a small group of them; you are doing exactly what Islamophobes do, judging all members of that religion by the actions of a few terrorists. When you do this, you become the exact thing you are railing against!

You need to campaign against eBay and their ban on the selling of human body parts.

 

[bluesjnr]

Now people want to look at me weird for my collection of WWII Japanese skull trophies sent home by US marines. It's just collecting.

What next my souvenirs of body parts from lynching victims?

Why are people coming after traditional American collectibles?

Yea they might have those neonazi tattoos for any reason, hence you can not judge someone for them.

You need to campaign against eBay and their ban on the selling of human body parts.

I'm collecting nonsensical, hyperbolic responses based on lies and faux outrage.............

 

[Vixen]

You missed the chance to do this...

A MAN WHO COLLECTED MATERIAL FOR A NEO-NAZI ORGANIZATION has been sentenced to four years in prison

for a stabbing in Aurajokiranta.

Aurajokiranta translates into English as 'The River Aura Embankment (/Strand)'.

(You see? Finnish is very simple: just one word instead of four.)

 

[Vixen]

There is this story in Germany not very recently.

AH

Click on to see the type of paintings this artist painted. The guy was responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews and a few million others in what was euphemistically called 'The Final Solution'

He was very lucky he didn't die (someone moved the bomb before it went off) but he later died by his own hand anyway.

- - - - -

OK, I'm just having a bit of fun at your expense, but I trust the point is clear.

This guy in Finland collected this memorabilia and he was also a scumbag - he tried to murder the "foreigner" because he was a scumbag NOT because he was a collector.

I get your point but these 'scumbags' are more often than not cowards - have to stab someone in the back instead of face-to-face - plus they need to have a feeling of group think behind them, even if it is an illusion. Collecting Nazi memorabilia gives them the illusion - especially if they have associates who also belong within an organised 'political group' or even a loose social one - that they have a whole load of other people behind them and this gives them Dutch courage to commit acts of violence when normally they would be too timid without the presumed support of the mob, whether real or imagined.

 

[Lithrael]

I come down on the side of don’t ban it but don’t stick it in your shop or home window either. It’s just good manners not to put that kind of thing in front of people who don’t want to confront it every day, and also not to attract the kind of people who do want to see it every day.

But imo being allowed to sell and collect it is basically fine; if you’re a history buff that should be ok and if you’re a legit neo-Nazi it’s like a butterfly being orange, people can look in your room and go holy **** and decide not to go out for drinks with you anymore.

I don’t think brick and mortar buddy extremism encouragement is even a blip on the radar anymore compared to the internet version, as far as the multiplication of social ills.

ETA: I also agree that saying you would LIKE to ban it and campaigning for that is completely appropriate.