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Jewish advocate wants Perth trader in 'Nazi' memorabilia closed down

Vixen said:
So are you saying the victims of Nazis should seek treatment for their trauma
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Yes, of course.

but the purveyors of that trauma should just carry on?
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The purveyors were largely tried at Nuremburg or hunted down afterwards.

Dealers in memorabilia are not Nazis, did not purvey the trauma attributed to Nazis, and should absolutely just carry on.

If someone's trauma is triggered by the idea that somebody, somewhere, might be selling a Nazi uniform button to someone else, the solution is for them to get professional help, not try to shut down all traders in Nazi memorabilia.
 
smartcooky said:
Strawman.

Please answer the question.
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You argue that there is no meaning inherent in objects and so context does not matter. Why does the object being a body part make it different? The category is WWII collectibles and so Japanese skulls solidly count as collectibles of the era.
 
Why is finding the "How much Nazi are we allowed?" Line so important to you people?

Where are so many of you so bothered by the idea that maybe we've overcorrected and aren't getting enough Nazi in our diet?

Why this hill?
 
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theprestige said:
Yes, of course.


The purveyors were largely tried at Nuremburg or hunted down afterwards.

Dealers in memorabilia are not Nazis, did not purvey the trauma attributed to Nazis, and should absolutely just carry on.

If someone's trauma is triggered by the idea that somebody, somewhere, might be selling a Nazi uniform button to someone else, the solution is for them to get professional help, not try to shut down all traders in Nazi memorabilia.
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No they weren't. Only about 200 were hanged as a result of Nuremburg. The vast majority of party card holders (8 million - probably included households) never had any infraction of any sort.

If a medal can stir the collector's heart, then it seems that likewise, negative emotions can also be stirred in those on the receiving end of the murderous thugs? It seems incredibly callous of you to claim they should get therapy, when their family and emotions are just as valid as the proud neo-nazi's.
 
TragicMonkey said:
But isn't the problem there one of usage of an object? Three people purchase one genuine Nazi rally flag each. One puts it in his museum of European history. One makes it into a quilt for her guest bedroom. One puts it up at his next neo-Nazi rally. Same object, three different outcomes.
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Exactly!

The rights of the genuine person who has a museum of European History are to be trodden on because someone else gets their feelings hurt.

I object to the "quilt for her guest bedroom" but I would not propose to ban her choice to use it that way. If guests don't like it, they can leave. I certainly would!

As to the last, the problem is not the flag, its the rally itself, but again, it is their right (much as I despise neo-nazis and fascists). I would either leave or join a counter-protest - or use the Blues Brothers solution.
 
ponderingturtle said:
You argue that there is no meaning inherent in objects and so context does not matter. Why does the object being a body part make it different? The category is WWII collectibles and so Japanese skulls solidly count as collectibles of the era.
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Again, strawman. You are attributing to me an argument that I never made.

Again, please answer the question about the camera - would you ban its sale/collection?
 
TragicMonkey said:
But isn't the problem there one of usage of an object? Three people purchase one genuine Nazi rally flag each. One puts it in his museum of European history. One makes it into a quilt for her guest bedroom. One puts it up at his next neo-Nazi rally. Same object, three different outcomes.
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The third outcome is the one I'd have a problem with. Someone engaging in proselitism of violence towards certain groups of people is where I draw the line, not the mere ownership of nazi symbols.

That's exactly what I meant when I said that collecting memorabilia per se is not a problem.
 
Dani said:
The third outcome is the one I'd have a problem with. Someone engaging in proselitism of violence towards certain groups of people is where I draw the line, not the mere ownership of nazi symbols.

That's exactly what I meant when I said that collecting memorabilia per se is not a problem.
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100% agree!
 
smartcooky said:
Exactly!

The rights of the genuine person who has a museum of European History are to be trodden on because someone else gets their feelings hurt.

I object to the "quilt for her guest bedroom" but I would not propose to ban her choice to use it that way. If guests don't like it, they can leave. I certainly would!

As to the last, the problem is not the flag, its the rally itself, but again, it is their right (much as I despise neo-nazis and fascists). I would either leave or join a counter-protest - or use the Blues Brothers solution.
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I believe the fundamental problem here is that shared social conventions like the concept of good taste are broader than the legal framework that same society has adopted to limit behavior. It's not against the law to pick your nose in public, or protest a child's funeral with picket signs saying God is happy somebody raped and murdered that four year old, or buy a bunch of Nazi crap (in some places) but it's certainly going against the grain of what is accepted as decent behavior. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it doesn't --it depends on what you personally think is acceptable or not, and whether violating the sensibilities of others is worth the negative consequences.

Personally, I think it shouldn't be illegal to buy and display Nazi crap. But if I were on the jury of someone being tried for smashing in the face of someone who displayed a bunch of Nazi crap I might not be entirely unsympathetic to the accused. Tastes differ, reap what you sow, don't start none won't be none, **** around and find out.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Personally, I think it shouldn't be illegal to buy and display Nazi crap. But if I were on the jury of someone being tried for smashing in the face of someone who displayed a bunch of Nazi crap I might not be entirely unsympathetic to the accused. Tastes differ, reap what you sow, don't start none won't be none, **** around and find out.
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I agree.

Everyone has the absolute freedom and the inalienable right (within legality) to be a douchebag. There should be no exceptions to this, but if being a douchebag has consequences, so be it.
 
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It's also (YET ANOTHER) discussion where everyone on one side is arguing passively.

"Nazis? Oh heavens not I would never have Nazi stuff in my house, perish the very thought. BUUUUTTTT....."

Listen if there's nobody in the discussion with the actual balls to argue FOR the thing in some actual real sense... that's a data point we shouldn't be told we have to ignore.

Who is the for? Who is this argument ******* for?
 
As an avid collector myself I think it is disingenuous to claim that collectors do not have a huge emotional response to the things they collect. Saying that it is all the same to some collecting for a museum display as part of their job to someone who seeks out items for the thrill of the chase doesn't have the ring of authenticity to me. Why bother collecting war memorabilia if it is no different from collecting My Little Pony models.


I don't have an opinion as to whether it should be banned but I do think the objectors should be listened to.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I believe the fundamental problem here is that shared social conventions like the concept of good taste are broader than the legal framework that same society has adopted to limit behavior. It's not against the law to pick your nose in public, or protest a child's funeral with picket signs saying God is happy somebody raped and murdered that four year old, or buy a bunch of Nazi crap (in some places) but it's certainly going against the grain of what is accepted as decent behavior. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it doesn't --it depends on what you personally think is acceptable or not, and whether violating the sensibilities of others is worth the negative consequences.

Personally, I think it shouldn't be illegal to buy and display Nazi crap. But if I were on the jury of someone being tried for smashing in the face of someone who displayed a bunch of Nazi crap I might not be entirely unsympathetic to the accused. Tastes differ, reap what you sow, don't start none won't be none, **** around and find out.
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That's a different thing, and yes, social taboos are shortcuts we create because I'm afraid there's no such thing as collective critical thinking, and as a society we tend to set the bar at the lowest common denominator, so that everyone gets it and the world is, let's say, easy to navigate for the less nuanced minds, but also for those who would be affected by the type of actions and behaviors we tend to censor.

Through social taboos, people aren't required to think why something is morally questionable, they just need to know it is a bad thing to do.

The tradeoff is that you tend to get knee-jerk reactions at the expense of the nuance and all that comes with it.
 
JoeMorgue said:
It's also (YET ANOTHER) discussion where everyone on one side is arguing passively.

"Nazis? Oh heavens not I would never have Nazi stuff in my house, perish the very thought. BUUUUTTTT....."

Listen if there's nobody in the discussion with the actual balls to argue FOR the thing in some actual real sense... that's a data point we shouldn't be told we have to ignore.

Who is the for? Who is this argument ******* for?
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No one here, besides you, is arguing that Nazis past or present are good guys...

Your straw supply must be running low...
 
If I enjoy building, painting and displaying miniature models of WW2 aircraft, should I avoid modelling the aircraft of the Luftwaffe?
 
arthwollipot said:
If I enjoy building, painting and displaying miniature models of WW2 aircraft, should I avoid modelling the aircraft of the Luftwaffe?
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You should be OK, so long as you make them inauthentic by not using any of the symbols of hate (so no swastikas on the vertical stabilizers those bf109s and bf110s).

Then you won't risk hurting anyone's feelings.
 
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