jt512
Philosopher
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OK, but what are the collectors of Nazi memorabilia enacting, the Holocaust? There's a difference.
Jewish advocate wants Perth trader in 'Nazi' memorabilia closed down
- Thread starter Vixen
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OK, but what are the collectors of Nazi memorabilia enacting, the Holocaust? There's a difference.
Exactly. We are not talking about German WWI medals and so on, but Nazi memorabilia.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
(Note: I'm assuming you mean WWII here, otherwise it makes no sense)
OK, so define what "Nazi memorabilia" is? You say "We are not talking about German WWII medals", so let me try to pin down what you mean by this...
Would you consider an Iron Cross awarded to a Luftwaffe pilot "Nazi" memorabilia?
How about an Iron Cross awarded to an Oberleutnant of the Waffen-SS who was an officer at a death camp? Nazi memorabilia?
What if the Iron Cross was awarded to an officer when he was in the Wehrmacht, before he later became a full blown Nazi and joined the Allgemeine-SS? "Nazi" memorabilia?
What if that Iron Cross was the one awarded to Oberst (Colonel) Claus von Stauffenberg, a Wermacht officer, member of the Nazi party, who was executed by firing squad for his involvement in the July 20 plot to assassinate Adolf Hitler? "Nazi" memorabilia?
... and how would you know the difference between them anyway?
You see, these are the kinds of problems you are faced with when you try to use vague, ill-defined terms to apply blanket "one size fits all" judgements.
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erwinl
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And then there are the people who want to 'rules lawyer' this all, because it is too difficult to say 'nazis are bad, we don't want to have anything to do with them'.
And to answer your questions. 'yes' to all of the 4 considerations you've given above.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
It's important to remember that Blewett's business is not really a walk-in public one (except perhaps if his shop in Perth is of that type). These are auctions and items catalogued. It is not just Nazi memorabilia, it is Soviet, Japanese, British, USA, and all kinds of nasty regimes throughout recent history. Whilst I shy away from Nazi memorabilia (ugh) I can see the fascination with history and that there are 'genuine' collectors, not just people with a Nazi fetish. If something is banned, it makes them all the more desirable and expenisve, no?
However, I can also see the point of view of Perth's Jewish population, especially the older ones who may still have handed down memories of Nazi Germany.
One of my old ex-bosses (who sold the business on when I started there but his artwork [which was truly bizarre, still hung everywhere in the offices; a wine shippers] was Rudolph Nassauer, who wrote the prize-winning book, The Hooligan*, about the Third Reich Nazi mindset. Rudy fled to England aged 15, and later married Booker-prizewinning novelist, Bernice Rubens. Anyway, in interviews, Rudy explains that when he returned to Germany he was so full of anger and emotion about what the Germans had done to his people (he was Jewish) he just wanted to flee the country and never return. Plus my best friend at school told me all about her grandparents incredible suffering there, so I have always been sensitive about this issue since. What I can't stand are the extreme Zionist Israelis who are more interested in bullying than debating.
*Peter Owen of The Independent called Nassauer, "an underrated writer whose most important work, The Hooligan, the first in-depth analysis of Nazi psychology, became a Sixties cult book."
The moral is: there are two sides to every issue.
However, I can also see the point of view of Perth's Jewish population, especially the older ones who may still have handed down memories of Nazi Germany.
One of my old ex-bosses (who sold the business on when I started there but his artwork [which was truly bizarre, still hung everywhere in the offices; a wine shippers] was Rudolph Nassauer, who wrote the prize-winning book, The Hooligan*, about the Third Reich Nazi mindset. Rudy fled to England aged 15, and later married Booker-prizewinning novelist, Bernice Rubens. Anyway, in interviews, Rudy explains that when he returned to Germany he was so full of anger and emotion about what the Germans had done to his people (he was Jewish) he just wanted to flee the country and never return. Plus my best friend at school told me all about her grandparents incredible suffering there, so I have always been sensitive about this issue since. What I can't stand are the extreme Zionist Israelis who are more interested in bullying than debating.
*Peter Owen of The Independent called Nassauer, "an underrated writer whose most important work, The Hooligan, the first in-depth analysis of Nazi psychology, became a Sixties cult book."
The moral is: there are two sides to every issue.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
Pure virtue signalling. Legislation enacted only for the purpose of expressing a POV.
Like the ban on drugs, it could only create a criminals' paradise.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Well, I would answer 'no' to all of the above.
To me, they are just medals awarded to soldiers. They are no different from medals such as Purple Hearts awarded to American servicemen, or British medals awarded to British servicemen.
erwinl
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But they're not 'just medals awarded to soldiers', aren't they? They're medals awarded to nazi soldiers and in some of your examples even to ss soldiers.
And they're certainly not equivalent to say a Purple Heart medal.
The Iron Cross medals were awarded to nazi soldiers who distinguished themselves when killing people during the nazi wars of conquest. Wars of conquest whose purpose was to murder, or failing that to enslave, as many people as possible.
Agreed
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Yes, they are
FTFY
Iron Crosses were awarded to Prussian soldiers between 1871–1918, and even earlier during the Napoleonic Wars. The SS didn't even exist then.
A combat medal is a combat medal is a combat medal. Some are more prestigious than others, but when it boils down to it, a medal just a piece of metal used as an award.
FTFY again.
Soldiers fight in wars because they are made to do so, and will suffer severe consequences if they refuse. Most German solders, sailors and airmen were not Nazis.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/Research/rese...ng-world-war-two-through-eyes-german-soldiers
LSE Professor of International History Sönke Neitzel specialises in the history of war, especially the First and Second World Wars. In 2001 Neitzel discovered a new source for researching the Third Reich and its military machine: secretly recorded conversations of German prisoners of war (POWs) in British and American captivity. The reports, held in the National Archives in London and Washington, D.C., run to about 150,000 pages.
Unlike official documents or even private letters—which German soldiers knew would be reviewed and censored—the recorded chats of the German POWs represent candid, even casual, exchanges between comrades.
Neitzel’s research revealed that most soldiers were not interested in National Socialism or the ‘new order’ that Nazi leaders sought to impose upon Europe. Their worldviews, shaped by the violent exigencies of war, were largely shaped by the core group to which they belonged, their unit, their duty, the next battle, and their weapons of war.
Critically, Neitzel’s research underscored that for most German soldiers the Second World War was in the main a continuation of the First World War: bigger, probably more brutal, but in the end the same war for the same reason, which was defence of the Homeland against foreign aggression.
Unlike official documents or even private letters—which German soldiers knew would be reviewed and censored—the recorded chats of the German POWs represent candid, even casual, exchanges between comrades.
Neitzel’s research revealed that most soldiers were not interested in National Socialism or the ‘new order’ that Nazi leaders sought to impose upon Europe. Their worldviews, shaped by the violent exigencies of war, were largely shaped by the core group to which they belonged, their unit, their duty, the next battle, and their weapons of war.
Critically, Neitzel’s research underscored that for most German soldiers the Second World War was in the main a continuation of the First World War: bigger, probably more brutal, but in the end the same war for the same reason, which was defence of the Homeland against foreign aggression.
erwinl
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I know the Iron cross was used before the nazi era, but we were talking about nazi memorabilia, not those of the German empire or of Prussia. Nazi memorabilia.
And yes of course the nazis were just defending their homeland from the foreign aggression of countries like Luxemburg, Denmark or for example the Netherlands.
And in defending their homeland they just happened to slaughter the civilians here in their thousands upon thousands!
Because nazi soldiers were just like any other, more than 100.000 jewish fellow Dutchmen slaughtered notwithstanding. And let’s not speak about the untold milions of Polish inhabitants they slaughtered.
But yeah, let’s pretend the nazis were just like any other soldiers and that collecting their memorabilia is just innocent fun.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
I know the Iron cross was used before the nazi era, but we were talking about nazi memorabilia, not those of the German empire or of Prussia. Nazi memorabilia.
And yes of course the nazis were just defending their homeland from the foreign aggression of countries like Luxemburg, Denmark or for example the Netherlands.
And in defending their homeland they just happened to slaughter the civilians here in their thousands upon thousands!
Because nazi soldiers were just like any other, more than 100.000 jewish fellow Dutchmen slaughtered notwithstanding. And let’s not speak about the untold milions of Polish inhabitants they slaughtered.
But yeah, let’s pretend the nazis were just like any other soldiers and that collecting their memorabilia is just innocent fun.
None of that has anything to do with the collecting of memorabilia. People's feelings should never override the rights of others.
People have the right to collect what they want - stamps, coins, bottles, medals, records, items from rock bands, sports teams, actors or famous people. No-one, including you, has yet put up a convincing argument that the collecting of Nazi memorabilia causes any actual, unavoidable harm to anyone. Anyone who feels harmed by someone else collecting Nazi memorabilia can avoid that harm by simply having nothing to do with the memorabilia or the collector - if you don't like certain music, don't listen to it.
When someone is able to come up with a convincing and/or compelling argument that collecting Nazi memorabilia causes actual, measurable harm to people (and it muss be harm that they cannot avoid being exposed to) then I will reconsider my position. Until such time, I remain unmoved and unswerving in my opinion.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
(Nominated.)
...That's it in a nutshell..
Start worrying when it becomes against the law to " hurt someone's feelings ".
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
There is this story in Finland very recently.
Click on link to see the type of memorabilia this neo-nazi collected, including the hateful flag. This guy knifed a complete stranger in the back who was of what they euphemistically call 'foreign background'.
He was very lucky he didn't die, if not for quick medical care after dragging himself to a nearby restaurant, and now he has a fear of going out.
HS
Click on link to see the type of memorabilia this neo-nazi collected, including the hateful flag. This guy knifed a complete stranger in the back who was of what they euphemistically call 'foreign background'.
He was very lucky he didn't die, if not for quick medical care after dragging himself to a nearby restaurant, and now he has a fear of going out.
angrysoba
Philosophile
You missed the chance to do this...
A MAN WHO COLLECTED MATERIAL FOR A NEO-NAZI ORGANIZATION has been sentenced to four years in prison
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Are you suggesting this would not have happened if the memorabilia was not available for purchase?
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
There is this story in Germany not very recently.
AH
Click on to see the type of paintings this artist painted. The guy was responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews and a few million others in what was euphemistically called 'The Final Solution'
He was very lucky he didn't die (someone moved the bomb before it went off) but he later died by his own hand anyway.
- - - - -
OK, I'm just having a bit of fun at your expense, but I trust the point is clear.
This guy in Finland collected this memorabilia and he was also a scumbag - he tried to murder the "foreigner" because he was a scumbag NOT because he was a collector.
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erwinl
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Well. Luckily the law does have something to say about this, specifically article 137e of the Dutch criminal law. Anybody of 'law and order', should recognize this as being a compelling rreason.
But even if this would not be the case. Some people hide so much behind the concept about what they 'could do' instead of what they 'should do'.
Us common decent people do recognize these kinds of people for the filth that they are and indeed don't want anything to do with them.
And if really needed, we can always verbally 'spit them in the face'. Or literal, that is of course also always an option.
erwinl
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Except that the kind of collection he had was because he was the scumbag he was.
It was a scumbags collection, so to say.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
...and other people who collect the same sorts of things are not scumbags.
You are making judgements against people based on no evidence other than your own prejudices.