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Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

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That's what I've been saying. Trans people don't identify as the other gender, they identify as a set of (largely outdated, sometimes even outright offensive) stereotypes of the other gender.

It's like me 'identifying as a black man' but only in the sense that I want to eat watermelon and fried chicken.

It's why Drag Queens don't wear a sensible pair of slacks and a light blazer when they "become" women but a gaudy, over the top sequined showgirl persona.

It's gender blackface minstrel show basically.


From your post, I am not entirely sure what your stance is here, but I would like to say that drag queen does not equal transwoman. Yes, some transwomen look like drag queens, and some drag queens are transwomen. But, drag is acknowledged as costume and performance, and most drag queens are not trans. There was a brief window when drag was considered to be offensive and problematic to the trans lobby. There seems to be a reconciliation, now, with Drag Queen Story Hour, which I find a bit weird. A bit weird, because I associate drag with raunch and burlesque. Also, a bit weird, because the event seems to be part of the trans lobby, but I don't know how that reconciles with everything I've just said. I may look pretty young, but I'm just backdated; I went to a bunch of drag shows at gay bars in the mid 90's, I don't really know how the culture has changed.

When I was in art school, circa 1997, some of the female students put on a drag show, where they "dressed up as women". I thought it was pretty clever. If it were done today, it may be called gender critical, or even terfy, I don't know.
 
We must know different women.


Fair point. But Emily is touching on something deeper. Women are indeed conditioned to give way to men in particular. We're scolded if we put our own interests and desires ahead of someone else's, and in particular if that someone else is male.

That doesn't mean every woman does that all the time. Some throw off the conditioning with ease. Others consciously fight the impulse to make doormats of themselves. But just wander round social media for a bit and you'll see plenty of examples of women scolding other women to (for example) think of the poor marginalised transwoman who just wants to pee, and ignore all your concerns about self-ID legislation being a predators' charter.
 
Ziggurat said:
The chemical doses those trans men probably had to take to get those muscles are also likely to cause long term damage. It’s a struggle for most biological men to get ripped even on natural testosterone.

Even the best case scenarios involve facing a lifetime of constant medical intervention. I can accept that for some people this might be worth it, but most trans advocacy isn’t being even remotely honest about the costs.


Buck Angel has been very open about the serious medical problems she developed due to long-term testosterone use, and pushes this knowledge on to girls who are transitioning whenever she can. She says things like, yes I know you don't want to think about it but you have a vagina and you have to look after it or you will suffer terribly. But nobody in the medical profession who is dealing with these girls seems to be telling them that.

It seems to be the case that even warning patients about the serious side-effects of transition medicine and surgery is being branded "conversion therapy", because it's regarded as an attempt to dissuade the patient from pursuing transition. I had to read a huge list of (really really unlikely) possible side-effects of cataract surgery before the surgeon would come near me, and sign that I understood all this, even though I would have gone blind without the operation. Doesn't apply to trans medicine though.

Given the basic undesirability of major surgery on a healthy body and filling up that healthy body with hormones it wasn't designed to cope with, you'd think any amount of psychotherapy would be worth it if that could be avoided. And I include even the most determined-to-transition individuals in this. Given Buck Angel's problems, would it not have been a better life for her if she had been able to come to terms with the body she was born in and not torture it the way she did?

I think it speaks to the basic fragility and lack of confidence of the trans lobby that they have to denounce even sensible warnings about probable adverse effects. I think they probably recogise subconsciously that with proper psychological counselling there would be very few trans people, and they don't want that.

ETA: Something else that struck me about Buck Angel. She calls herself "Tranpa" and offers herself as a mentor and shoulder-to-cry-on to girls who are transitioning. When transwomen like Paris Hilton do the same thing it is deeply creepy and is rightly criticised as potential grooming. Buck Angel doesn't get the same criticism. Why not? Because we know that Buck Angel is a woman, offering support to other women. The woman with the deep voice and the beard is not creepy, but the man with the scuplted cleavage and the high heels is.
 
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This article in today's Times about Eddie Izzard is worth a read.

Also, if you have time to spare, this is an excellent interview with Helen Joyce on Spectator TV about the whole trans issue.


ETA: And this one absolutely re-defines "snowflake". A venerable and respected Cambridge college (which used to be for women students only) themed its Hallowe'en party on Harry Potter. This is apparently "offensively transphobic" and makes people feel "uncomfortable and unsafe".

Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way.
 
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I think it speaks to the basic fragility and lack of confidence of the trans lobby that they have to denounce even sensible warnings about probable adverse effects. I think they probably recogise subconsciously that with proper psychological counselling there would be very few trans people, and they don't want that.
Is it so hard to empathise with? Parking the issue of who is right, it seems to me analogous to asking 2nd wave feminists to entertain the idea that ultimately the societal changes they demanded make the average man and woman less happy and fulfilled and are ultimately destructive to society. I doubt one would ever get past the visceral rejection of that possibility to have a real discussion of the merits of the objection. The idea of the objection is fundamentally immoral from that perspective. Didn't Emily's Cat say something like it was the right thing to do even if it made women less happy. Maybe by the same reasoning, the transactivist position is right, even if it adds to the sum of human suffering? You'd then have the same hand waved dismissal that what ever problems one foresaw could be dealt with and mitigated if they materialised.

It seems to me as if it should be very easy for you to empathise with their reaction to your position, even if you think they are wrong, as I think you are wrong. You are doing the equivalent of telling them that the pre-sexual revolution gender relations are kind of the natural state of man and that attempts to deny that are ultimately self defeating.
 
Fair point. But Emily is touching on something deeper. Women are indeed conditioned to give way to men in particular. We're scolded if we put our own interests and desires ahead of someone else's, and in particular if that someone else is male.
Are you sure you aren't rebelling against women, amongst other things, being higher in agreeableness than men? It seems when trans-women claim to be women, you say they don't act like women... so there is a way that women act that is different to how men act. You then want to attribute things about the way women act to social conditioning. It seems like for Emily's Cat's world to come into being where we move beyond gender/sex stereotypes then, unless humans stop noticing patterns, the behavioural differences between men and women need to be pretty much all conditioning. If that's true, then in what sense are trans-women not acting like women? I'm pretty sure you've listed undesirable examples of male assertiveness that trans-women are also guilty of, that I understood you to be saying stemmed from their biological male natures. I think you've talked about male brains and male puberty being a significant part of why trans-women can't be trusted to act like women. Female agreeableness is social conditioning though?
 
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Is it so hard to empathise with?

What’s that got to do with anything? You can empathize with all sorts of terrible people and terrible actions, it doesn’t stop them from being terrible. Empathy is actually a very poor guide for determining how you should act. It’s very easy to exploit empathy for nefarious purposes.
 
What’s that got to do with anything? You can empathize with all sorts of terrible people and terrible actions, it doesn’t stop them from being terrible. Empathy is actually a very poor guide for determining how you should act. It’s very easy to exploit empathy for nefarious purposes.
Well, it kind of seemed like Rolfe didn't empathise with them. She was psychoanalysing them, which isn't the same thing. As I explained, I see a lot of similarities in Rolfe's strong feelings about women, and women's rights.... and the trans-activists strong feelings about trans-women and trans-rights. Sure, you can point to some AGP men as having a central role in pushing it, but that isn't the majority of the people who believe in this stuff and have turned it into a social force.... it's not hard to point to a bunch of man hating lesbians, and atypical women at the centre of feminism over the years, but that isn't most feminists. You get this in most liberation movements. Maybe Rolfe is right, and they are wrong about the nature of men and women, but the basic desire to escape the restrictions that the combination of biology and society put on the individual seems the same. I don't see why we need to go reaching for pathological motives for one group, and see the other as just reasonable people wanting justice.

I certainly wasn't arguing that empathy was an infallible guide to action. Empathising with a trans-woman who feels uncomfortable with being regarded as a man doesn't mean you should restructure society to make them comfortable any more than a woman who feels uncomfortable with how society sees her gender means one should do that. In many ways I was thinking more about empathising with people who believe this stuff rather than specifically with the trans-people themselves. It seems like its lots of the same people and same organisations who previously backed LBG and feminist causes. Did they have a brain transplant and suddenly become lesbian erasing misogynists, or is there a lot that is the same in their motivation for all these things?
 
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Are you sure you aren't rebelling against women, amongst other things, being higher in agreeableness than men? It seems when trans-women claim to be women, you say they don't act like women... so there is a way that women act that is different to how men act. You then want to attribute things about the way women act to social conditioning. It seems like for Emily's Cat's world to come into being where we move beyond gender/sex stereotypes then, unless humans stop noticing patterns, the behavioural differences between men and women need to be pretty much all conditioning. If that's true, then in what sense are trans-women not acting like women? I'm pretty sure you've listed undesirable examples of male assertiveness that trans-women are also guilty of, that I understood you to be saying stemmed from their biological male natures. I think you've talked about male brains and male puberty being a significant part of why trans-women can't be trusted to act like women. Female agreeableness is social conditioning though?
Biology and social conditioning might well contribute to aggressiveness in men and agreeableness or lack of aggression in women. And, biology is not destiny.
 
I don't really empathise with people who are lobbying to make it a crime to offer psychological counselling to young people so as to avoid the necessity for them to undergo major surgical and medical interventions that will wreck their sexual function, render them infertile, carry a high risk of major health problems and probably shorten their lives, no. When this includes lobbying to make it a crime even to warn the young people of these possible/probable/certain side-effects, definitely not.
 
I don't really empathise with people who are lobbying to make it a crime to offer psychological counselling to young people so as to avoid the necessity for them to undergo major surgical and medical interventions that will wreck their sexual function, render them infertile, carry a high risk of major health problems and probably shorten their lives, no. When this includes lobbying to make it a crime even to warn the young people of these possible/probable/certain side-effects, definitely not.
That is your loss, I think. One can profoundly disagree with people, but unless you can say to yourself "yes, I can see how they came to feel that way", you don't really understand them. This is one of the great divides of our age, even beyond the utility of understanding, it seems interesting to me. Years ago I was a normie liberal, and I couldn't understand why people were so mad keen on guns and 2A. Trying and beginning to empathise with that was the beginning of my journey. Otherwise, what.... we just regard our enemy as possessed by some metaphorical daemonic evil?
 
I can see how they came to feel that way. I think it is profoundly selfish. There is a difference between understanding someone's thought processes and empathising with them.
 
That's what I've been saying. Trans people don't identify as the other gender, they identify as a set of (largely outdated, sometimes even outright offensive) stereotypes of the other gender.

It's like me 'identifying as a black man' but only in the sense that I want to eat watermelon and fried chicken.

It's why Drag Queens don't wear a sensible pair of slacks and a light blazer when they "become" women but a gaudy, over the top sequined showgirl persona.

It's gender blackface minstrel show basically.
The average transman I have seen looks much more manly than I do, muscles beards and everything, seems they're aiming for the manly stereotype.


I dont think transgender is gender nonconforming at all, it looks like they are aiming for a gender stereotype and conforming to it, it's just not the one they might be expected to conform to.
 
I can see how they came to feel that way. I think it is profoundly selfish. There is a difference between understanding someone's thought processes and empathising with them.
Most of the people who support and believe this stuff get nothing directly from the belief (or at least no more than they got for supporting countless other causes). They are not AGP, let alone trans... yet it has taken over academia and much else. The same academia and the same people who supported your causes until recently. These aren't ignorant people who don't know the kinds of things you are arguing. These are the same people who supported gay marriage, and all the other progressive gains of the past 60 years. They suddenly became motivated by some kind of selfishness by proxy?

Take the non-trans supporters of the trans agenda on this forum. Your theory is that they are motivated by selfishness? I guess there is little more to be said, but I have a hard time believing you when you say you empathise with them. It sounds very much like when, in other threads posters seem to believe that conservatives understand the world in the same way as progressives, and are just selfish and hateful. Applying feminist theory and calling women who support this stuff misogynists is not empathy, it's the classic tactic of pathologizing a viewpoint. Its the same things transactivists do when they accuse people like you transphobic. It's thought terminating, and it isn't empathy.

How can nice, well informed people think this is a good idea seems like an interesting question to me.
 
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You seem to be imagining that I was talking about all pro-trans people. I was specifically talking about those who campaign to have it made illegal to give any information to a child or teenager who wants to transition which might make them reconsider that course of action.

I also think there is a big difference between understanding why someone is doing something, and "empathising" with them.
 
Most of the people who support and believe this stuff get nothing directly from the belief (or at least no more than they got for supporting countless other causes). They are not AGP, let alone trans... yet it has taken over academia and much else. The same academia and the same people who supported your causes until recently. These aren't ignorant people who don't know the kinds of things you are arguing. These are the same people who supported gay marriage, and all the other progressive gains of the past 60 years. They suddenly became motivated by some kind of selfishness by proxy?

Take the non-trans supporters of the trans agenda on this forum. Your theory is that they are motivated by selfishness? I guess there is little more to be said, but I have a hard time believing you when you say you empathise with them. It sounds very much like when, in other threads posters seem to believe that conservatives understand the world in the same way as progressives, and are just selfish and hateful. Applying feminist theory and calling women who support this stuff misogynists is not empathy, it's the classic tactic of pathologizing a viewpoint. Its the same things transactivists do when they accuse people like you transphobic. It's thought terminating, and it isn't empathy.

How can nice, well informed people think this is a good idea seems like an interesting question to me.

You're tangling up the conversations here. Rolfe was referring to transwomen's desires as "profoundly selfish". Given the high rate of narcissism among AGPs who transition, this is quite accurate.

One can stand back from the argument and note that transwomen are a very small minority in comparison to women, and therefore wonder if the small minority getting their own way despite vocal opposition from part of the much greater majority isn't also to be considered a form of group narcissism or selfishness. The denial that there is in fact a conflict over rights and attempts to shut down discussion ('no debate') also fits.

Rolfe wasn't saying that non-trans allies and supporters are being selfish; trans allies extend their natural sympathies for oppressed groups to the trans minority. The problems start with how trans allies then respond to women and others who protest clashes of rights. The rights of women are overlooked, ignored, set to one side or declared as unimportant. This includes the rights of women to be called women (latest examples from Twitter: 'people with uteri', 'partner with eggs'). As there is 'no debate' about the clash of rights, or the clash of rights is conflated with other arguments, then it's a bit difficult to know how to debate the clash of rights neutrally.

Advocacy and persuasion are however not the same as analysis, and in standing back from the rancour, it is very obvious that some of the pro-trans side are emboldened by unconscious misogyny into disregarding or belitting the concerns of women in general, and gender critical feminists in particular. That can be internalised misogyny among women, conditioned to give way to men's views, gay misogyny (very much a thing, but far from universal among male homosexuals), or leftist dudebro misogyny (also a thing, but not universal). On balance, cries of 'misogyny' seem fewer than cries of 'transphobe', and are used more analytically, further down the list of arguments, rather than as an instant thought terminating cliche, as we see time and again with refusal to debate gender critical feminist arguments being justified with 'transphobe'.

For example, someone might note that an institution has converted its women's toilets into a unisex bathroom while retaining a men's toilet as a men's toilet. Noting the discrepancy and asking why this has happened might well prompt many to wonder at the blatant imbalance and to wonder about sexism. Figuring out why the institution's facilities department took this decision, presumably while consulting with EDI departments/officers, is secondary to noting the imbalance, which goes considerably beyond self-ID principles of saying 'transwomen are women' and makes the formerly women-only space accessible to 100% of men, not just a minority of men who identify as women.

Analysing why such conversions take place and why more and more healthcare providers are using rebarbative language ('people with uteri', 'menstruators') to erase the term woman from everyday speech, can and should eventually award the chief offenders with the epithet of misogyny. But one doesn't need the term to know the erasures are unjust and offensive.
 
I was actually saying that trans advocates who lobby for it to be made illegal to give a young person considering transition any information at all that might cause them to think again are selfish. Some of these will be trans, some not.

Youth transition is a horrendous meat factory of lopped-off breasts and shrivelled, infantile penises. It's children who never get to produce viable gametes and never get to experience sexual pleasure. It's children who go on to become medical patients for life, often experiencing serious adverse health events due to the mess that has been made of their endocrine systems, and often die prematurely.

Why on earth would anyone NOT want to minimise the number of young people who go down that route, by trying everything possible to reconcile them to the healthy bodies they have? The answer seems to be a desire to increase the size of their own "community", or the community they are invested in supporting. I call that profoundly selfish.
 
I was actually saying that trans advocates who lobby for it to be made illegal to give a young person considering transition any information at all that might cause them to think again are selfish. Some of these will be trans, some not.

Youth transition is a horrendous meat factory of lopped-off breasts and shrivelled, infantile penises. It's children who never get to produce viable gametes and never get to experience sexual pleasure. It's children who go on to become medical patients for life, often experiencing serious adverse health events due to the mess that has been made of their endocrine systems, and often die prematurely.

Why on earth would anyone NOT want to minimise the number of young people who go down that route, by trying everything possible to reconcile them to the healthy bodies they have? The answer seems to be a desire to increase the size of their own "community", or the community they are invested in supporting. I call that profoundly selfish.

Using selfish to describe what you're talking about here might be confusing - I got confused, for starters.

There is certainly a collective self-interest in terms of empire-building ('the community they are invested in supporting') and in direct business interests (pharmaceutical companies and healthcare providers). The empire-builders and ideologues have however undermined the growth potential of the pharma-and-surgery peddlers by throwing open gender identity to anyone who desires it. If gender identity is just a feeling, then no need for drugs and surgery, which some transwomen seem very happy with, as they keep their 'girldicks' and beards.

But the exponential growth in trans identifying youth who have medically transitioned will have consequences that the empire-builders won't want to hear about, and indeed that is happening right now.

It's one thing to access medical treatments to transition if you are on your parents' healthcare plan or a college healthcare plan in the US, another thing when you get to 25, and don't have a job with good healthcare that will pay for your ongoing treatments. An awful lot of trans men are going to reach 25 in the next few years, after transitioning as teenagers or college students from 2013-2022 and seeking hormones and surgery. There are already significant numbers of detransitioners regretting their treatment, aged 21 or over, and they will grow in number over time. The kneejerk response of the trans lobbies to the likely inevitable shortfalls in resources for the ageing generation of 2010s trans youth will be to argue for unconditional blank cheques for healthcare costs and support, to file lawsuits, claim discrimination, etc. But over time, there will be more awareness of what the long-term side-effects and financial costs of medical transition are.

One should therefore ask: why should society pay for surgical and pharmaceutical medical treatment for gender dysphoria? If the numbers increase significantly, this necessarily means higher costs in an era of financial turbulence and for the UK, prolonged austerity. It would not surprise me if some of the reasons for the revision to NHS guidelines were reached by performing a simple cost-benefit analysis - encouraging early medical transition incurs x costs over y years and is therefore a bad idea from a budgetary perspective.

There might not be the money to fund sufficient therapists to monitor gender dysphoric teenagers, since mental health services are threadbare in the UK, but the signals being sent out - the Tavistock's GIDS is closing and being reorganised, puberty blockers won't be used as a standard - are probably enough to discourage some of the medicalised fast-tracking (the gender affirmative approach) that was emerging in recent years. If trans kids socially transition at schools and online, but can't access medical treatments, then the chances of desistance are far greater. It could well be simply a 'phase' and something they can grow out of.

However terrifying the % increases over the past decade might be, the absolute numbers reported from both the Tavistock as well as US public healthcare exchanges for referrals for gender dysphoria which may have or did result in medical treatment are actually lower than the anecdotal impression of numbers of trans-identifying teenagers in some schools on either side of the Atlantic. Tavistock referrals are peaking around several thousand a year for the UK vs 70 million population (12.3 million under-18s). There was a recent Reuters story referring to some hundreds of thousands of medical cases in the US over a number of years, again showing exponential increases. But this compares with a population of 332 million, which means circa 60 million under-14s. (The unknown factor is how many sought medical treatment privately.) More common and more vocal does not necessarily translate into huge numbers in absolute terms.

Presumably, a lot of self-identified trans kids and teenagers are therefore not seeking or able to access medical treatment. There are anecdotes of gender identities so in flux they change from week to week or within school terms. Those who commit wholeheartedly to trying to change their bodies through medical treatments must logically be a minority. The difference might be similar to the experiences of the average teenage girl, dieting and exercising and worrying about her body, and someone with acute anorexia or bulimia. The epidemic of trans identification is as much a social contagion as the spread of anorexia in some teenage social circles. The hugely damaging aspect is that trans identitication is positively encouraged by schools and social media, whereas the pressures resulting in anorexia are more invisible (but no less pervasive for being less talked about).

One presumes, therefore, that some teenagers who identify as trans or non-binary recoil from taking the next step and subjecting their bodies to drugs and surgery. This only increases the tragedy for those who naively go ahead with medical transition not thinking about the medium-term consequences, and come to regret this.
 
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You're tangling up the conversations here. Rolfe was referring to transwomen's desires as "profoundly selfish". Given the high rate of narcissism among AGPs who transition, this is quite accurate.
I'll back off, but given that lots of people believe this stuff who aren't themselves trans, and don't directly benefit from it... I don't find selfishness to be a very satisfying explanation for even the transwomen themselves. Some, sure. It always reads to me as if one is claiming that the selfish people actually agree on all the facts, understand that society works in the way we think it does, agree with us about all the downsides, and are just bad people who don't care. For myself, I think feminism has been a net negative, but I don't think Rolfe is selfish for wanting the things feminism promised. She sees the world very differently to me. Calling them selfish is both reductive, and a conversation killer... if they are just doing it out of selfishness, then what more is there to understand?
 
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I'll back off, but given that lots of people believe this stuff who aren't themselves trans, and don't directly benefit from it... I don't find selfishness to be a very satisfying explanation for even the transwomen themselves. Some, sure. It always reads to me as if one is claiming that the selfish people actually agree on all the facts, understand that society works in the way we think it does, agree with us about all the downsides, and are just bad people who don't care. For myself, I think feminism has been a net negative, but I don't think Rolfe is selfish for wanting the things feminism promised. She sees the world very differently to me. Calling them selfish is both reductive, and a conversation killer... if they are just doing it out of selfishness, then what more is there to understand?

If the issues can be debated neutrally, then it's in terms of clashes of rights. Women's spaces segregated by sex have a value of their own. They can be defended on various grounds, which aren't dependent on identifying the motives or identities of all men wishing to enter those spaces.

The very notion of self-ID creates a loophole which can be exploited by a minority of predators who aren't in any realistic sense 'transwomen' or identified as women, but who will simply claim this as a defense when challenged or arrested.

There will soon be as many cases where the 'trans defense' is used as the 'sex games gone wrong' defense has been used in the past 10-15 years to get men out of the consequences of strangling women during sex. In most such cases these are not fully trained BDSM masters who 'identify as Dominants', but ordinary ******* men. The same will happen as ordinary ******* men exploit the gender self-ID loophole. There are certainly already as many cases where convicted sex offenders and murderers have decided to identify as trans to seek cushier prison conditions and possible further grounds for appeal (including at least two men on death row in the US).

The fact that a subset of men identifying as transwomen are very clearly raging narcissists in the grip of AGP, and that trans widows confirm the ultimate selfishness of late-transitioning men in numerous cases, can be true but not immediately relevant to debates over self-ID and single sex spaces. There are also androphilic transwomen who really do want to be 'one of the girls' to ease their gender dysphoria, and there are post-op transsexuals, with or without AGP or self-awareness of their conditions, who are making more effort to pass.

Women can't distinguish between these groups at a glance, nor should that be an issue: modesty and privacy are values worth upholding over and above eliminating the risks of sexual assault.
 
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