Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[theprestige]

This doesn't take into account men who feel they were born into the WRONG body and need to undergo hormone therapy and surgery to become the person they truly are and were meant to be.

Those men are taken into account by very closely adjacent arguments.

Also, that feeling is a delusion. No man can credibly claim that they know what it feels like to be a woman and that they should therefore have a female body.

Do you insist we should accommodate someone who suffers from BIID, by affirming that the way they feel about their body is true, and by amputating their healthy body parts until they have the body they "know" they're supposed to have?

Do you insist we should accommodate someone who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia, by affirming that the intrusive thoughts in their head are legitimate thoughts, that should be acted upon because the person "knows" they are real and true?

No?

Then why would you insist that someone suffering from gender dysphoria must know what it really feels like to be a woman, and that they really should have a female body because they "know" that's what's true for them?

 

[Rolfe]

You may not be comfortable, but it's a common enough thing. It typically happens when there are long queues at gigs, theatres, cinemas and so on. I'm pretty sure I've seen it at the Natural History Museum where I recall the toilet facilities being inadequate. Normally there is some assertive woman who leads the charge. My mother has definitely joined the line of women going to the gents. I've never seen any protest.

I'm not sure there is really a sense that men are entitled to do that. You are coming from the perspective of decades of feminism. You can't map that on to men. Beyond that, men tend to be isolated individuals in these spaces. Uniting together is generally not how men operate in toilets, George Michael not withstanding.

I know why these things are the case. As I said, both segregated toilets, and segregated sports are there to for the benefit of women. The sex segregated spaces that were there for the benefit of men were decided to be based on prejudice and were gotten rid of.

Right. It's a protest. It's not directed at men, it's directed at the management because their toilet provision is inadequate. Women do not want to colonise the men's room, to play out their sexual fetish and to get validation of they assumed identity. They want more women's toilets. Get over it.

 

[shuttlt]

Why is sex the only "wrong" body anyone is ever born into?

Nobody is born with the wrong blood type. Nobody with detached earlobes identities as someone with attached earlobes.

Not that I agree with the idea of "wrong body", but.... our sex, and the behaviours that go with that are kind of key to who we are. A girl needs to map on to her mother and learn how to enact the role of woman, a boy needs to do the same with his father. Blood type and ear lobes just aren't as psychologically important. Doubtless there will be cosmetic surgery addicts who have felt this about their ear lobes.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why is sex the only "wrong" body anyone is ever born into?

Nobody is born with the wrong blood type. Nobody with detached earlobes identities as someone with attached earlobes.

Oh, I wouldn't say that's really the case. Lots of women are apparently born with (or more correctly, develop with) the wrong breast size. In more extreme examples, there are the people who want limbs amputated.

But yeah, we don't treat these things as being equivalent. We do give special status to the "wrong sex" thing, and it doesn't really make sense.

 

[theprestige]

Why is sex the only "wrong" body anyone is ever born into?

It's not. Look into BIID, and plastic surgery fetishes and addictions, for other examples of being born into the "wrong" body. And also for some alternative ideas about how gender dysphoria might be handled in public policy: As a condition to be treated or tolerated, rather than as a "valid lived identity" to be accommodated and enabled.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Our sex, and the behaviours that go with that are kind of key to who we are. A girl needs to map on to her mother and learn how to enact the role of woman, a boy needs to do the same with his father..

Utter and across the board complete and total sexiest ********.

 

[shuttlt]

Right. It's a protest. It's not directed at men, it's directed at the management because their toilet provision is inadequate.

No, it isn't a protest. It's women not wanting to wet themselves, or miss the third act.

Women do not want to colonise the men's room, to play out their sexual fetish and to get validation of they assumed identity.

I never said this. This seems to be you again agreeing with you that the surviving sex segregation is there pretty much exclusively for the benefit of women.

They want more women's toilets.

Probably, but then in old building that is difficult.

Get over it.

Maybe you need to get over being part of the group that gets to decide whose concerns are valid, and whose are based on prejudice? It's certainly not me, or anybody like me who is replacing you, and I regret it, but there it is. Progress.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Oh, I wouldn't say that's really the case. Lots of women are apparently born with (or more correctly, develop with) the wrong breast size. In more extreme examples, there are the people who want limbs amputated.

But yeah, we don't treat these things as being equivalent. We do give special status to the "wrong sex" thing, and it doesn't really make sense.

It's not. Look into BIID, and plastic surgery fetishes and addictions, for other examples of being born into the "wrong" body. And also for some alternative ideas about how gender dysphoria might be handled in public policy: As a condition to be treated or tolerated, rather than as a "valid lived identity" to be accommodated and enabled.

Okay but you know what I mean. It's the only one with discourse at this level. It's the only one being presented as a civil rights issue. It's the only one being presented to the society with "Okay now decisions have to be made" message to it.

It's the only one that's an issue.

For now, anyway.

 

[p0lka]

You know, I may leave this for others for a bit, because it gets really tedious going over the same hack arguments that have been shredded multiple times already.

Transwomen act and think like men..snip

Do Transmen act and think like women?

 

[Rolfe]

Oh yes.

Well, I'll qualify that a little. Testosterone is a one-way street. A woman who has taken testosterone for a while changes herself a bit, and it's not predictable what the changes will be in any individual, or how extensive. But yes, all the transmen I have encountered code as women once you've interacted with them for a bit, even if at first they code male because of their appearance.

 

[Rolfe]

It's not. Look into BIID, and plastic surgery fetishes and addictions, for other examples of being born into the "wrong" body. And also for some alternative ideas about how gender dysphoria might be handled in public policy: As a condition to be treated or tolerated, rather than as a "valid lived identity" to be accommodated and enabled.

I don't think most cosmetic surgery is done because people think they've been born into the wrong body. I think they're perfectly aware that this is their body, but they would like to improve it in a particular way.

Not, I was born with the wrong nose, but rather, I don't like the shape of my nose, I would like to change it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again nobody here (worth listening to) is struggling with the "I'd LIKE a different body" thing.

I'd much rather be 6 foot 2 with a stronger jawline and much less body fat. I just don't think I have some "Identity Soul" of someone with that body.

 

[Rolfe]

No, it isn't a protest. It's women not wanting to wet themselves, or miss the third act.

I never said this. This seems to be you again agreeing with you that the surviving sex segregation is there pretty much exclusively for the benefit of women.

Probably, but then in old building that is difficult.

Maybe you need to get over being part of the group that gets to decide whose concerns are valid, and whose are based on prejudice? It's certainly not me, or anybody like me who is replacing you, and I regret it, but there it is. Progress.

You actually referred to the assertive woman who leads the charge. At some level, it's a protest. And it's not that difficult to rearrange lavatory arrangements so that women have more space. By taking some space away from men. Maybe the theatre would listen if the men who are being upset by these uppity women were to complain.

 

[theprestige]

I don't think most cosmetic surgery is done because people think they've been born into the wrong body. I think they're perfectly aware that this is their body, but they would like to improve it in a particular way.

Not, I was born with the wrong nose, but rather, I don't like the shape of my nose, I would like to change it.

Wholeheartedly agree. But it sure does seem like some (hopefully very few) people are obsessed with transforming themselves into horrific parodies of human flesh, and convinced that each surgery is an improvement over their previous condition.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There's really no valid parallel because I don't expect any new or different accommodations if I get a nose job.

There's nothing I expect to be able to do before I get a nose job or a hair plugs or silicone lip injections or whatever that I couldn't do before.

 

[p0lka]

Going back to the question of parents transing their little boys because they'd rather have a trans daughter than a gay son, this one just popped up. The article is pro-trans propaganda even to the point of citing the false suicide statistics, but it's absolutely clear that the poor little boy was saying he was a girl to make the beatings he was getting for liking girly things stop.

https://twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1287864162312364033

Parents like that are detestable.

I've seen several instances where young kids are confused by social media and their friends, to the point that they decide they have gender issues cos it's fashionable, rather than just accepting they're attracted to the opposite sex.

In one case they're an adult now, have taken hormones and transitioned and are happy.
In another case they were wanting puberty blockers, being told no it's not allowed, going through puberty and is now bisexual and happy.

In those two instances the parents just wanted them to be happy. Social media has a big effect on some of this.

 

[p0lka]

If your definition of "woman" is decoupled from biological sex, it's meaningless. Identifying as a woman, with such a definition, is a meaningless claim.

If your definition of "woman" is synonymous with "biological female", then it's impossible for a male to identify as and with women because the experience of gender dysphoria in males is not identical to the experience of actually growing up female.

Dishonest if you know these truths but insist on "identifying" anyway.

That's not an exhaustive list, what if your definition of 'woman' is what you see in movies, books, stageplays, history etc? Based on a stereotype rather than any real thing.

 

[Rolfe]

That too.

 

[Elaedith]

They dress as a women, they undergo hormone therapy and surgery to make them look like a physical woman, they live their lives as a woman, they identify as a woman and with women.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

A key tenet of modern trans activism is that you do not need to transition in any way to be transgender, and that being male or female is based on an invisible internal feeling and nothing else.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That's what I've been saying. Trans people don't identify as the other gender, they identify as a set of (largely outdated, sometimes even outright offensive) stereotypes of the other gender.

It's like me 'identifying as a black man' but only in the sense that I want to eat watermelon and fried chicken.

It's why Drag Queens don't wear a sensible pair of slacks and a light blazer when they "become" women but a gaudy, over the top sequined showgirl persona.

It's gender blackface minstrel show basically.