Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[theprestige]

*Laughs* Everyone is asking the trans side the same question over and over and we are never going to get an answer.

We are never, ever going to get an answer on what factor of the other gender trans people want to... lay claim to I guess (not 100% what I'm trying to say but in the ballpark) and this entire argument is just so much... nothing until we get an answer on that.

The fact that the trans side has no answer to the gender question is the main reason I've given up on that and settled on biological sex as the answer that actually resolves the entire argument.

I absolutely reject the idea that we can't resolve trans issues in public policy without an answer to the gender question. So should you.

 

[theprestige]

Yes, thank you. Stupid equivocating confusing jargon. Plus stupid friday fingers.



That too - a lot of transgender identified females only look male in isolation. It's very easy to see the beard and the lack of breasts and make a quick assumption... until there are actually males in their presence. Then it's quickly apparent who the males are in most cases. Buck Angel is a very masculine presenting transman who has been trans for ages and ages... and still, if you see them in the presence of males, it's clear how much smaller and more delicately framed they are - even with the graying beard!

The same is true of even fairly well-passing transgender identified males. Blair White looks very feminine - with filters and in isolation. When they are shown without heavy filters and in the presence of actual females, however, it's not even a question. And they've had a LOT of work done.

I've been saying for a while that some people can, with effort, favorable conditions, and a friendly audience, pass pretty easily. Take away those advantages and the underlying phenotype gets pretty obvious pretty quick.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Haha!

About 5 years ago my wife had a "bull dyke" buzz cut, while I had a foot-long ponytail, so I guess we swapped gender somewhere.

I'll make sure to get her to have my next prostate exam, but I'm not sure I'm into getting her cervical smear done on me.

If you've never watched the show "Letterkenny", I highly recommend it. It's completely hilarious, over and over.

One of the later episodes had a bit where a new doctor comes into town, and the doctor wants all of the adult males to have a quick prostate check. The males all cringe. One of the female resident asks them what's involved in their 10-second exam... then goes on to give a long description (with demonstration) of what's involved in a cervical smear.

The description of a speculum as "jaws of life, but for your mitt" had me rolling.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

They also had a bit I appreciated, regarding male and female athletes. The female hockey team was insisting they were just as good as the male team, and the coach essentially laughed in their faces while mentioning the physical realities of males versus females in sport. They played... and the female team lost by miles and miles. It was a pleasant reinforcement of reality in today's world, especially given that it was produced in Canada.

 

[Rolfe]

Should I just accept what anyone says for instance? Is it an ad hom fallacy to point out they have a prior agenda?

If "anyone" simply presents a compilation of material put up on the net by the very people they are criticising, it's quite difficult to put that in the category of "just accepting what they say".

Everybody has a point of view. There is no such thing as an unbiassed source. The trick is to see who is presenting evidence to support their position and who is not. Of course this is "cherrypicked". Nobody is going to sit through an hour of gross selfies of transwomen behaving badly interspersed with film of transwomen doing ordinary everyday things without upsetting anyone. What would be the point? Balance?

As Ziggurat said, how many cherries can reasonably be brushed aside as isolated incidents before you realise that there's a cherry orchard there?

 

[Rolfe]

That too - a lot of transgender identified females only look male in isolation. It's very easy to see the beard and the lack of breasts and make a quick assumption... until there are actually males in their presence. Then it's quickly apparent who the males are in most cases. Buck Angel is a very masculine presenting transman who has been trans for ages and ages... and still, if you see them in the presence of males, it's clear how much smaller and more delicately framed they are - even with the graying beard!

The same is true of even fairly well-passing transgender identified males. Blair White looks very feminine - with filters and in isolation. When they are shown without heavy filters and in the presence of actual females, however, it's not even a question. And they've had a LOT of work done.

Yes. I saw a short clip of a young Buck Angel going in for surgery and she was so obviously a woman it coloured everything I saw of her, even her present appearance. See her in mixed company and it's a very different story.

Also that posed picture someone showed earlier of a group of transmen who were (unusually) into bodybuilding and the gym, and had genuine he-man muscles. Looked good when they were all transmen. Put them beside some actual bodybuilding men and it's a different story. Also the femininity of the face seems to remain with most of them, beard or not.

The more common pictures of pathetic-looking teenage girls posing topless in "shirt-off" pics to celebrate their "top surgery" are simply tragic. There is no question at all about the sex of these girls. Nor of the even more pathetic ones who have had fake muscle implants inserted to give a facsimile of a six-pack and/or calf muscles. Who is even doing that to these kids. It's not fooling anyone.

I don't know about Blaire White as I've never seen him in the flesh. He looks convincing on YouTube, but I believe he gets double-takes all the time. Some of the men on that film looked to me as if they passed well enough that I wouldn't give them a second glance in the Ladies' room. But on the other hand, who knows what a second glance would reveal. And given the startling make-up and clothing choices, second glances are almost inevitable. Women don't go around like that. Maybe if they can maintain the illusion in ordinary clothes I might believe it. Which sex you appear to be in t-shirt, jeans, hoodie and trainers could be quite the test.

 

[Rolfe]

They also had a bit I appreciated, regarding male and female athletes. The female hockey team was insisting they were just as good as the male team, and the coach essentially laughed in their faces while mentioning the physical realities of males versus females in sport. They played... and the female team lost by miles and miles. It was a pleasant reinforcement of reality in today's world, especially given that it was produced in Canada.

Olympic-level women's teams often compete against schoolboy teams in training, and usually lose. I saw one such instance regarding rowing mentioned earlier today. Team chosen for the Olympics against a team of 15-year-old boys from the local school. The boys trounced the Olympian women.

 

[Samson]

Olympic-level women's teams often compete against schoolboy teams in training, and usually lose. I saw one such instance regarding rowing mentioned earlier today. Team chosen for the Olympics against a team of 15-year-old boys from the local school. The boys trounced the Olympian women.

Reminds me of the saying in horse racing.
A good big'un always beats a good little'un.

 

[Rolfe]

https://twitter.com/FeministRoar/status/1586126971582689280

Transwomen are men. They are socialised as men. They display the exact same behavioural patterns as men. The suggestion they are gender non conforming in any but the most superficial of ways, presentation,* is ludicrous. Their masculinity and desire to dominate is unrestrained.

*Also their superficial presentation as rejecting male gender conformity actually reinforces it. They're the dominators embedding the idea being female is about being sexualised and incapable whilst fetishising our subjugation. There is nothing gnc about identifying as trans.

That is a very perceptive comment.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't know about Blaire White as I've never seen him in the flesh. He looks convincing on YouTube, but I believe he gets double-takes all the time.

Sorry, my error. I meant Katie Montgomery, not Blaire White. Monty only passes online, with heavy filters. As you say, I don't think I've ever seen White alongside anyone else, and they at least appear to pass well.

 

[Rolfe]

Ah, that makes better sense. I think I would probably not notice Blaire White, although how he'll age remains to be seen. He does get occasional double-takes. Again I've seen footage of him as an obvious young man going into surgery.

It should be no surprise that people can be fooled by extensive surgery designed to deceive. My attitude to people like that in women's spaces is that what I don't know won't hurt me. But we absolutely must retain the right to ask a man to leave if he is making us uncomfortable, to our own measure of uncomfortable. And it must be understood that if a man is asked to leave in these circumstances, he simply does it, no arguing.

 

[Ziggurat]

Also that posed picture someone showed earlier of a group of transmen who were (unusually) into bodybuilding and the gym, and had genuine he-man muscles. Looked good when they were all transmen. Put them beside some actual bodybuilding men and it's a different story. Also the femininity of the face seems to remain with most of them, beard or not.

The chemical doses those trans men probably had to take to get those muscles are also likely to cause long term damage. It’s a struggle for most biological men to get ripped even on natural testosterone.

The more common pictures of pathetic-looking teenage girls posing topless in "shirt-off" pics to celebrate their "top surgery" are simply tragic.

Even the best case scenarios involve facing a lifetime of constant medical intervention. I can accept that for some people this might be worth it, but most trans advocacy isn’t being even remotely honest about the costs.

 

[TomB]

Do trans people get to "use" gender roles to affirm their gender that would be a stereotype you expected it from someone in a traditional gender role?

Someone answer that question. Actually and directly answer it in human language using words as they are already defined and then be prepared to actually back if it contradicts all your other arguments.

People are arguing that a trans person wearing a dress makes them more a woman, but a biological woman NOT wearing a dress doesn't make them less of a woman and THAT IS NOT HOW REALITY WORKS.

Square the circle or stop using it as an argument.

In fairness, I don't think anyone thinks wearing a dress makes a trans person more of a woman. Nor does anyone say that a trans woman has to wear a dress all the time.

However, if a trans woman wants others to perceive and treat them as a woman (whatever that means) without having to verbally inform everyone she meets, it is necessary to send out signals. The most unambiguous non-verbal signals in our society happen to be dresses, makeup, long hair and high heels. A combination that very few men adopt.

Unfortunately, it's also a stereotype that women have tried to break away from.

Can a trans woman be a tomboy? If so, how can we tell if anyone is in the right bathroom?

I've come to the conclusion that bathrooms should be segregated by sex or not at all because I can't think of a reason for segregation based on gender. (But allowing for discretionary tolerance of trans women.)

 

[TomB]

Holy cow, I'm not a woman anymore! Thanks, Mr, Man for setting me straight! Here I'd made the mistake of thinking (clearly that's where I went wrong, amirite?) that I am a female because I have a uterus, ovaries, and vulva... but it turns out that because I have short hair and wear trousers almost exclusively... I'm actually not female at all!

I guess that fibroid that almost killed me was just a figment of my imagination.

And I guess that since my bepenised prostate-haver of a spouse has long hair and likes sparkly things, they aren't actually male either.

Such science, so knowledge!

On the bright side, you can now partake of male privilege.

 

[TomB]

Agreed. Transmen also tend to have the same conditioned behaviors that females have - be kind, be compassionate, don't invade, don't take up space, etc.

We must know different women.

 

[theprestige]

We must know different women.

If you know one misanthropic woman, you know a misanthrope. If every woman you know is misanthropic...

 

[TomB]

If you know one misanthropic woman, you know a misanthrope. If every woman you know is misanthropic...

It's mostly a joke.

However, I have daughters. I've seen how the girls treated each other in middle school and high school. Kindness? Compassion?

Hell hath no fury like a teenage girl.

As one (female) teacher told me: girl drama is much crueler than boy drama.

 

[Ziggurat]

Can a trans woman be a tomboy?

This should be a zen koan.

 

[porch]

I guess that fibroid that almost killed me was just a figment of my imagination.

Few things say "hysteria" more than a fibroid, in a, you know, extremely literal and etymological kind of way.

 

[porch]

It's mostly a joke.

That's how I read it, and I thought it was an excellent one-liner. I also thought theprestige's response was an equally excellent one-liner, but I wasn't sure at that point if it was just banter, or if an argument was being made. Either case, it was good for me.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Yes. I saw a short clip of a young Buck Angel going in for surgery and she was so obviously a woman it coloured everything I saw of her, even her present appearance. See her in mixed company and it's a very different story.

Also that posed picture someone showed earlier of a group of transmen who were (unusually) into bodybuilding and the gym, and had genuine he-man muscles. Looked good when they were all transmen. Put them beside some actual bodybuilding men and it's a different story. Also the femininity of the face seems to remain with most of them, beard or not.

The more common pictures of pathetic-looking teenage girls posing topless in "shirt-off" pics to celebrate their "top surgery" are simply tragic. There is no question at all about the sex of these girls. Nor of the even more pathetic ones who have had fake muscle implants inserted to give a facsimile of a six-pack and/or calf muscles. Who is even doing that to these kids. It's not fooling anyone.

I don't know about Blaire White as I've never seen him in the flesh. He looks convincing on YouTube, but I believe he gets double-takes all the time. Some of the men on that film looked to me as if they passed well enough that I wouldn't give them a second glance in the Ladies' room. But on the other hand, who knows what a second glance would reveal. And given the startling make-up and clothing choices, second glances are almost inevitable. Women don't go around like that. Maybe if they can maintain the illusion in ordinary clothes I might believe it. Which sex you appear to be in t-shirt, jeans, hoodie and trainers could be quite the test.

People don't understand wound healing, they assume that it's a process that restores injuries to 'as good as new'. The scar tissue used to repair them is just that, scar tissue, and quite different from the original differentiated cells it replaces. One of the ghastlier symptoms of 'scurvy' - prolonged, acute ascorbate deficiency - is the the breakdown of scar tissue and the opening of 'healed' wounds. Were this understood people would be far less sanguine (sic) about gratuitously 'going under the knife'.