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Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

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I really do not understand any of your thought processes in regards to this issue. It's like trying to talk to Trump supporters.

I've stated before that I don't want anyone to get hurt. I want everyone to enjoy safety, security, and dignity. Somehow, that continually gets morphed into:

"YOU WANT WOMEN TO GET HURT!"

In the mean time, they're ALREADY being hurt by the current system! Men too. Apparently violence across gender lines is bad but violence within genders is totes fine. And I'm using gender as a catch-all since no one wants to actually define what it is in a realistic way but DEMAND it be used so what else can I do?

Women being hurt by men = BAD

Agreed.

Women being hurt by women = GOOD

What kind of sick **** is that?

If you people actually cared about women as you claim, you would want to fix the issues of inherent violence within the existing systems. You don't though. You're completely fine with women being hurt, as long as it's by other women.

I find this attitude sick and disgusting. Why would you want ANYONE to get hurt? Do away with the issues revolving around safety and *poof* go most of the arguments regarding trans women since most of the arguments around them seem to be little more than: "MAN BAD! HURT WOMAN!" Well, that wouldn't be possible if we actually dealt with the existing safety issues that so many here continually ignore, now would it.

When you accept that it has nothing to do with gender or gendered spaces or whatever ******** excuse you want to use, and has everything to do with you being willing to accept violence AT ALL, you'll realize just how imbecilic this whole situation is.

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Removed breaches of rule 0, rule 12 and matters of forum management outside the FMF section
 
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I'm going to refer back to that film again, which I have now watched all the way through.

https://odysee.com/@Skirt_Go_Spinny:7/Wrong-Ans-Only-1:b

"Not all trans" of course, but a hell of a lot of them nonetheless. Men commenting on this (and indeed women who are still unaware) need to get their heads round the nature of the men they are defending, characterising as poor souls born in the wrong body who "think and behave like women", and lobbying for entry into women's protected spaces.

It's a fetish. It's a commandeering of our intimate spaces and even more so our presence in them to support and gratify the sexual paraphilia where a male fantasises about being their own pornified cariacature of womanhood.

The film goes past some stuff so quickly it's worth putting it on pause to read the frames that aren't readable at normal speed. There is a sequence near the end about men who present as transwomen who have been convicted of various types of sexual abuse, including sexual abuse of children. It goes past so quickly because there are so many of them.

When men perform a parody of femininity and claim this farce is what women truly are, they are fundamentally deconstructing women's humanity, reducing half the human population to a demeaning and objectified fantasy. But crucially they are redirecting women back to the restrictive roles that have afforded the power over the female sex in the first place.

The belief that womanhood can be attained through a combination of desire re-framed as devout suffering, alongside the purchasing of products — clothing, cosmetics, surgeries — is, at its core, a belief that women are commodities which men are entitled to possess. It is a belief system that attempts to define women as fetish objects and reduces women to the Freudian castrated male. The male claim to a female identity is in itself a fetishisation of women's systemic subordination.
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In practical terms we can't keep them all out. Some of them are performing their fantasy so effectively that they do indeed "pass". Until they start masturbating in front of the mirror while women behind them don't know where to look, of course. However, we would prefer to retain some capability of policing our spaces against this, whether it be the ability to keep out the ones who are obviously men, or the ability to ask the "passing" ones to leave when they demonstrate by their behaviour that they are men.

That is what those men bravely standing up for "equality for transwomen" want to take away from us.
 
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I have a Facebook friend who is (using their language) transitioning from male to female.

The first thing they started doing was putting on like a legit stand up routine level bit about hating men.
 
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It takes different people different ways, but remember. If someone who has not obviously been as camp as a row of tents since childhood announces as an adult that he is transitioning, he is AGP.
 
Rolfe said:
I'm going to refer back to that film again, which I have now watched all the way through.

https://odysee.com/@Skirt_Go_Spinny:7/Wrong-Ans-Only-1:b

"Not all trans" of course, but a hell of a lot of them nonetheless. Men commenting on this (and indeed women who are still unaware) need to get their heads round the nature of the men they are defending, characterising as poor souls born in the wrong body who "think and behave like women", and lobbying for entry into women's protected spaces.

It's a fetish. It's a commandeering of our intimate spaces and even more so our presence in them to support and gratify the sexual paraphilia where a male fantasises about being their own pornified cariacature of womanhood.
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Can we say "It's [all] a fetish" as opposed to "It's a fetish [for some]," given gender dysphoria in the DSM?
 
Paul2 said:
Can we say "It's [all] a fetish" as opposed to "It's a fetish [for some]," given gender dysphoria in the DSM?
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If we have no way to EXTERNALLY AND OBJECTIVELY tell the difference, indeed aren't even "allowed to ask" the difference it's a distinction without difference.

We can't reduce the difference between a mental disorder versus actual legit... life condition (you'll have to forgive me the language has been glassed from orbit at this point) down to nothing but a motive. Way too much of this is already "Completely internal to the person" for my taste.

You can't be trans dot dot dot unless you intend to do something nefarious.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
That's what I've been saying. Trans people don't identify as the other gender, they identify as a set of (largely outdated, sometimes even outright offensive) stereotypes of the other gender.

It's like me 'identifying as a black man' but only in the sense that I want to eat watermelon and fried chicken.

It's why Drag Queens don't wear a sensible pair of slacks and a light blazer when they "become" women but a gaudy, over the top sequined showgirl persona.

It's gender blackface minstrel show basically.
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All of the trans women I have seen dress and look like your average lady.
 
Hercules56 said:
All of the trans women I have seen dress and look like your average lady.
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Describe how you expect "average ladies" to dress and how society should enforce that.

(And let's play spin the wheel.

1. Mumbled nothing.
2. No answer.
3. Accusation of transphobia.
4. Full fringe reset.)
 
GaughEyad said:
I've stated before that I don't want anyone to get hurt.
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So what? The policies you seem to be advocating for will get people hurt. They have already gotten people hurt. That you didn't want these results doesn't really matter, they are still the results.

Apparently violence across gender lines is bad but violence within genders is totes fine.
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Totes fine? Please, stop with the straw men. Nobody claims that. But it's pointless to pretend that all violence is the same, because it's not.

And I'm using gender as a catch-all since no one wants to actually define what it is in a realistic way but DEMAND it be used so what else can I do?
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Nobody here demands that gender be used. I'd much prefer to discuss sex. That's easy to define.

Women being hurt by men = BAD

Agreed.

Women being hurt by women = GOOD

What kind of sick **** is that?
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That, dear boy, is a straw man.

Women are not as violent as men. That's simply a fact. There are multiple reasons for that, but they don't really matter for the moment. Because they are less violent, AND because they are not as physically strong, women pose much LESS of a threat of violence towards each other than men pose to them.

If you people actually cared about women as you claim, you would want to fix the issues of inherent violence within the existing systems.
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You say that as if there is a fix. I don't think that's true. It's likely true that such things could be improved, but that's not a fix, and even if they were, you'd still be making the same argument.

And it doesn't make any logical sense anyways. Let's suppose for a moment that there were improvements we could make to women's prisons that would reduce or even eliminate violence between women inmates. We're not doing that, that's a bad thing. Oh noes.

What's your response? You don't want to fix it either. Instead, you want to make it worse. Because equality.

Do away with the issues revolving around safety and *poof* go most of the arguments regarding trans women
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Prove that those issues even CAN be fixed, THEN we'll talk. Otherwise you're just making them worse and using the excuse that it wasn't already perfect as justification.

But guess what: they CANNOT be fixed. Prisons will ALWAYS have a risk of violence between inmates. It's not possible to house people with behavioral problems together and make sure that none of them ever get violent with each other. The only possible way to prevent all violence between inmates is to isolate all of them. And here's where your problem runs into an insurmountable brick wall: isolating people in prison is even worse for them than running the risk of violence. Long term isolation is basically torture.

You're assuming a utopian state is possible, and using the fact that we haven't achieved it as justification for screwing things up even more. Why would we accept that?

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Removed quoted rule breaches and responses to them
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Describe how you expect "average ladies" to dress and how society should enforce that.

(And let's play spin the wheel.

1. Mumbled nothing.
2. No answer.
3. Accusation of transphobia.
4. Full fringe reset.)
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Skirt, blouse, shoes, long hair. Classic lady.
 
Rolfe said:
I'm going to refer back to that film again, which I have now watched all the way through.

https://odysee.com/@Skirt_Go_Spinny:7/Wrong-Ans-Only-1:b

"Not all trans" of course, but a hell of a lot of them nonetheless..snip
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re the highlighted, glad to hear it.

You keep posting that link so I had a quick look, yeah that's disconcerting,

then I had a look at who posted it, 'Skirt Go Spinny',

then I looked into them,

they seem to be a self acknowleged 'radfem', that 'can't stop won't stop' from their own words.

How do I know that the link you're posting is impartial ie trustworthy, or just a hitjob by someone who cherrypicks and makes **** up for their own agenda?
 
JoeMorgue said:
If we have no way, indeed aren't even "allowed to ask" the difference it's a distinction without difference.

We can't reduce the difference between a mental disorder versus actual legit... life condition (you'll have to forgive me the language has been glassed from orbit at this point) down to nothing but a motive.

You can't be trans dot dot dot unless you intend to do something nefarious.
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ETA: I didn't see your edits before the wrote the following:

First, I'm happy with not bringing in "legit life condition" terminology. The distinction between it all being a fetish and gender dysphoria as defined in the DSM-V does the job to clarify whether it's all a fetish or not by itself (assuming that some people with gender dysphoria do not present with a fetish).

I don't care if someone thinks I'm not allowed to ask about the difference, but we do (might?) have a way to tell the difference *if* some trans folk report dysphoria but some don't. My vague impression is that that's the case.

Which of the following do we have, empirically?
Trans folk with gender dysphoria, no fetish
Trans folk with fetish, no gender dysphoria
Trans folk with fetish and gender dysphoria
 
Paul2 said:
First, I'm happy with not bringing in "legit life condition" terminology. The distinction between it all being a fetish and gender dysphoria as defined in the DSM-V does the job to clarify whether it's all a fetish or not by itself (assuming that some people with gender dysphoria do not present with a fetish).

I don't care if someone thinks I'm not allowed to ask about the difference, but we do (might?) have a way to tell the difference *if* some trans folk report dysphoria but some don't. My vague impression is that that's the case.

Which of the following do we have, empirically?
Trans folk with gender dysphoria, no fetish
Trans folk with fetish, no gender dysphoria
Trans folk with fetish and gender dysphoria
Click to expand...

Alls I'm saying is you can't, with anything resembling intellectual or moral honesty, land on "They are genuinely and honestly trans... unless they do something bad then they were obviously faking it"
 
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