Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[Craig4]

The BBC wrote, 15 hours ago:

(https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-62902029).


No, I believe Ukraine should make as quickly as possible the necessary concessions, based on democracy, to end this conflict, and better protect itself. Soldiers (and civilians) are getting serious injuries, probably every day.

To the extent they are trying to retake Crimea, I believe Ukraine is actually pursuing a war of conquest, with unfortunate Western backing.

Where have the Ukrainians occupied Russian territory? They've raided into Russia and hit Orc war potential (lawful under the laws of armed conflict). What Russian territory have they or do you think they want to occupy?

 

[Wildy]

I don't see genocide committed by the Russians in Ukraine, all I see is occasional violence committed by Russia against civilians or against civilian targets.

Yep, the mass graves, indiscriminate killings, and rapes of Ukrainians don't count as genocide. It's just "occasional violence". Just ignore the backdrop of Russia claiming that Ukrainians aren't an ethnicity or deserve to exist as an independent state or anything like that.

The firebombing of German cities by the UK and US during WWII, and the atomic bombing of two Japanese cities by the US (until Germany and Japan surrender unconditionally) were much more violent and genocidal in nature, in my opinion.

And yet more whataboutism and minimising. We're not talking about the US. We're talking about Russia. You don't get to claim that something isn't genocidal just because it doesn't reach the standard of what you consider the US to have done as a genocidal.

Cosmic Yak, the Yugoslavia I wrote about was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, comprising Serbia (mostly) and Montenegro (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro). In other words, I wrote about Milosevic's Yugoslavia (not Tito's one), which was an ally of Russia:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Serbia_relations)

Should the US and NATO have stayed out of the Balkans and allowed the ethnic cleansings to continue unabated?

 

[Michel H]

Should the US and NATO have stayed out of the Balkans and allowed the ethnic cleansings to continue unabated?

Not necessarily. When there is a conflict in some country, some international help may be very useful, like for example when France and Germany intervened to try to stop the civil war in eastern Ukraine, which led to the Minsk agreements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements).

However, I think the 1999 bombing campaign against Yugoslavia by NATO was a grave crime, with many unfortunate consequences (I suspect 9/11 might be related).

 

[Michel H]

Where have the Ukrainians occupied Russian territory? They've raided into Russia and hit Orc war potential (lawful under the laws of armed conflict). What Russian territory have they or do you think they want to occupy?

According a Russia (and a small number of other countries), Crimea belongs to Russia, while Donetsk and Luhansk are independent, and this seems to (importantly) reflect the views of the local people.

So, if Ukraine tries to use US weapons to impose its rule on these territories, this has undoubtedly the nature of a war of conquest, in my opinion.

It would be much better for Ukraine to say:"ok, we'll respect the wishes of the people, where are these peace treaty papers we need to sign?".

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Not necessarily. When there is a conflict in some country, some international help may be very useful, like for example when France and Germany intervened to try to stop the civil war in eastern Ukraine, which led to the Minsk agreements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements).

However, I think the 1999 bombing campaign against Yugoslavia by NATO was a grave crime, with many unfortunate consequences (I suspect 9/11 might be related).

What did Russia do to stop the massacres and ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia?

 

[Craig4]

According a Russia (and a small number of other countries), Crimea belongs to Russia, while Donetsk and Luhansk are independent, and this seems to (importantly) reflect the views of the local people.

So, if Ukraine tries to use US weapons to impose its rule on these territories, this has undoubtedly the nature of a war of conquest, in my opinion.

It would be much better for Ukraine to say:"ok, we'll respect the wishes of the people, where are these peace treaty papers we need to sign?".

What is the value of the opinion of genocide supporters?

 

[Oystein]

Russia did these things because there was a civil war in Ukraine. Russia tried to help their pro-Russian friends in Ukraine.

On the other hand, is Ukraine is rid of its pro-Russian population, there should be no civil war, and no ground for Russia to intervene, and this could open an era of peace and prosperity for Ukraine (and even for Russia too).

Every Ukrainian who wants to be Russian is, and always has been, free to move to Russia. Russia will gladly provide them with Russian passports.
Just please stay in Russia!

Donbas is NOT Russian. If you want to be Russian, move to Russia.
Donetsk is NOT Russia.
Luhansk is NOT Russia.

 

[Wildy]

It would be much better for Ukraine to say:"ok, we'll respect the wishes of the people, where are these peace treaty papers we need to sign?".

So why didn't Russia respect the independence of the Chechens and do that?

 

[Oystein]

According a Russia (and a small number of other countries), Crimea belongs to Russia, while Donetsk and Luhansk are independent,

Crimea is NOT Russia. This has been pointed out to you - so please do not lie!
Donetsk is NOT Russia, and Donestk is NOT at all independent from Russia.
Luhansk is NOT Russia, and Luhansk is NOT at all independent from Russia.

and this seems to (importantly) reflect the views of the local people.

All these regions voted with absolute majority to become Ukraine, independent from Russia, when actual, free referendums were held. This has been pointed out to you - so please do not lie!

So, if Ukraine tries to use US weapons to impose its rule on these territories, this has undoubtedly the nature of a war of conquest, in my opinion.

You are objectively wrong. Every country has 100% the right to defend its borders against foreign invasion. Russia invaded Donetsk in 2014. Russia invaded Luhansk in 2014. Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. This has all been pointed out to you. Do not lie!

It would be much better for Ukraine to say:"ok, we'll respect the wishes of the people, where are these peace treaty papers we need to sign?".

It would be much easier and better if Russia simply pulled out of all the territories it occupied, kept the Ruscist bits of the populations that want to be Russian and fled to Russia, and ask for the papers and where to sign that they will fully reimburse the damage done to Ukraine by paying hundreds of billions of $$$ in reparations.

 

[Wildy]

Crimea is NOT Russia. This has been pointed out to you - so please do not lie!

Just to save everyone some time, here's the wiki link to the transfer of Crimea in the Soviet Union article that will get posted in response to this.

 

[Craig4]

There has never been a referendum in any region of Ukraine on breaking away or joining Russia.

 

[jeremyp]

There has never been a referendum in any region of Ukraine on breaking away or joining Russia.

There was a referendum on breaking away from the USSR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum

There was also a referendum in Crimea about rejoining Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

Of course the latter referendum was held whilst Crimea was occupied by a fascist dictatorship.

 

[Craig4]

There was a referendum on breaking away from the USSR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum

There was also a referendum in Crimea about rejoining Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

Of course the latter referendum was held whilst Crimea was occupied by a fascist dictatorship.

I beg to differ. The only authority that can hold a referendum in Ukraine is Ukraine. Ukraine never held referendums.

 

[Oystein]

I beg to differ. The only authority that can hold a referendum in Ukraine is Ukraine. Ukraine never held referendums.

There was not a referendum in Ukraine. There was one in Crimea only.
Do you maintain that the only authority that can hold a referendum in Crimea is Ukraine?

---

Did Scotland hold a referendum, or did the UK hold a referendum in Scotland?
I think you will agree, without qualification, that Scotland, not the UK, held a referendum on independence some years ago.

Was this a legitimate refereendum? If the outcome had gone for Scottish independence, would you have accepted it as legit?

So, a referendum was held in Crimea. By, I suppose "Crimea".

Do you still maintain that the only authority that can hold a referendum in Crimea is Ukraine?

---

What deligitimizes the Crimean referendum is not so much the jurisdiction which held it, but the circumstances under which it was held. Chief among them, IMO, the speed and suddenness with which it was pushed through, without first negotiating all the terms and conditions, e.g. for material assets of economic value changing hands. There was no time to fairly inform the population, so it could make an adult choice.

The Scottish referendum was a good example of how this sort of thing is done. Many constitution contain prescriptions for processes of how to alter borders in a democratic process, should the populations (plural!) affected by it be in favor - one could study those.
The Ruscists did none of that.

 

[Michel H]

What did Russia do to stop the massacres and ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia?

I don't know, but they did not bomb Croatia for 3 months (like NATO did with Serbia).

 

[Michel H]

Crimea is NOT Russia. This has been pointed out to you - so please do not lie!
Donetsk is NOT Russia, and Donestk is NOT at all independent from Russia.
Luhansk is NOT Russia, and Luhansk is NOT at all independent from Russia.



All these regions voted with absolute majority to become Ukraine, independent from Russia, when actual, free referendums were held. This has been pointed out to you - so please do not lie!


You are objectively wrong. Every country has 100% the right to defend its borders against foreign invasion. Russia invaded Donetsk in 2014. Russia invaded Luhansk in 2014. Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. This has all been pointed out to you.

Perhaps you could tell us also if you believe that Kosovo should be forever a province of Serbia, and that Taiwan should be forever a province of communist China.

 

[Craig4]

There was not a referendum in Ukraine. There was one in Crimea only.
Do you maintain that the only authority that can hold a referendum in Crimea is Ukraine?

---

Did Scotland hold a referendum, or did the UK hold a referendum in Scotland?
I think you will agree, without qualification, that Scotland, not the UK, held a referendum on independence some years ago.

Was this a legitimate refereendum? If the outcome had gone for Scottish independence, would you have accepted it as legit?

So, a referendum was held in Crimea. By, I suppose "Crimea".

Do you still maintain that the only authority that can hold a referendum in Crimea is Ukraine?

---

What deligitimizes the Crimean referendum is not so much the jurisdiction which held it, but the circumstances under which it was held. Chief among them, IMO, the speed and suddenness with which it was pushed through, without first negotiating all the terms and conditions, e.g. for material assets of economic value changing hands. There was no time to fairly inform the population, so it could make an adult choice.

The Scottish referendum was a good example of how this sort of thing is done. Many constitution contain prescriptions for processes of how to alter borders in a democratic process, should the populations (plural!) affected by it be in favor - one could study those.
The Ruscists did none of that.

The law that governs elections in Ukraine is Ukrainian. Crimea never had the authority to hold a referendum because it was in contravention of Ukrainian law. One presumes that there are laws governing polling places, the timing, campaign practices and vote counting that Ukraine never enforced through the authority to manage elections. Therefore no referendum took place.

 

[Craig4]

Perhaps you could tell us also if you believe that Kosovo should be forever a province of Serbia, and that Taiwan should be forever a province of communist China.

Kosovo was a result of an settlement between both parties and ratified lawfully. Taiwan is much more complicated as it has a functioning democracy (not always the case) and the authority of China remains deliberately legally ambiguous as the result of the civil war that brought the CCP to power. Neither is remotely analogous to the invasion of Ukraine by Russia in 2014.

 

[Michel H]

Kosovo was a result of an settlement between both parties and ratified lawfully.

What was ratified lawfully? The independence of Kosovo?

 

[Craig4]

What was ratified lawfully? The independence of Kosovo?

After many fits and starts both parties ratified the Washington agreement in 2020.