Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[Olmstead]

The mask is about to completely come off:




Summary:

Destroy Ukraine! Show America what a big dick we have! Let them freeze! Drive all of them out of their homes! Make refugees of all of them! Ukraine will be ours! All ours, hahahahahaha!

By the way, Ukrainians are Nazis.

 

[Myriad]

The problem with saying "we can't/won't hold back any more" is that it doesn't mean anything unless you've actually been holding back.

 

[Michel H]

Like what Ukraine offered way back in March?
Including an offer for the possibility of Ukraine to remain nuetral ie not enter nato? And with Russia still continuing the war?

They actually tried what you're suggesting now and it simply did not work. Putin was not interested in peace and just wanted to continue the war.

Like what Ukraine offered way back in March?

It is true that there were some interesting discussions between Ukraine and Russia taking place in Turkey in March. These discussions could have led to peace, but they eventually failed, apparently after some pressure by British Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

RT.com explains:

According to Russian diplomats, Moscow wrote up a formal peace agreement based on Ukrainian proposals and sent it to Kiev, but never heard anything back.
In May, some Ukrainian media linked the collapse of the negotiations with pressure imposed on Kiev by British Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
...
Johnson visited Kiev on April 9, ... he branded Putin a war criminal who could not be trusted and said that “even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they [the West] are not.” Security guarantees for a neutral Ukraine from major world powers were the cornerstone of the proposed peace deal.

(https://www.rt.com/news/562029-ukraine-russia-peace-talks/)

Actually, I don't blame entirely Johnson for not liking Ukraine's proposal of "security guarantees by a number of countries". This is dangerous, it could lead to a major war (remember Poland and WWII).

Apparently, according to this RT article, Zelensky changed his mind after learning about Russian crimes committed in Bucha (this, however, was not a good reason, in my opinion).

 

[Michel H]

Michel H has yet to acknowledge Russia's failures to act in good faith and deal honestly with the actual implications and reality of the situation because of that, by the look of it. No point in bothering to care about his opinions when he's so busy ignoring that extremely relevant chunk of the big picture.

I see no reason to believe Russians are less honest than their Western counterparts. I think (like many members of this forum) they made a mistake by attacking Ukraine, but they are certainly not the only ones who have made an error.

Russia is currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine, mostly in the Russian speaking area (though Kherson seems to have actually a small majority of Ukrainian speakers, see this map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Map12_b.png).

For comparison, the US recently invaded and occupied illegally (without a U.N. authorization, and in violation of the UN Charter) the wholes of Afghanistan and Iraq, countries which speak a completely different language and are very far away. The US also bombed illegally Yugoslavia for 3 months in 1999, something which has certainly not been forgotten in Moscow.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

It is true that there were some interesting discussions between Ukraine and Russia taking place in Turkey in March. These discussions could have led to peace, but they eventually failed, apparently after some pressure by British Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

RT.com explains:

(https://www.rt.com/news/562029-ukraine-russia-peace-talks/)

Actually, I don't blame entirely Johnson for not liking Ukraine's proposal of "security guarantees by a number of countries". This is dangerous, it could lead to a major war (remember Poland and WWII).

Apparently, according to this RT article, Zelensky changed his mind after learning about Russian crimes committed in Bucha (this, however, was not a good reason, in my opinion).

No, I'm sure it isn't. And the mass graves being found in the newly liberated areas of Ukraine are to you probably a good way to conduct a referendum, after all those that would object then cannot vote and thus you get a clear result.

 

[crescent]

...mostly in the Russian speaking area ....

Who the hell cares what language they speak? Do you think Mexico really wants to be recolonized by Spain? That the U.S. wants to be English again? Does Bhutan want to merge with Nepal? Are English-speaking Indians traitors to the Great Bharat?

There are plenty of videos of Russian-speaking Ukrainians working very hard to save Ukraine - including Zelensky himself. Plenty of videos of Russian speaking people in Kharkiv coming out of their houses and shelters and enthusiastically greeting the Ukrainian troops - in Russian.

Language is no metric, at all, to gauge ones nationality identification.

Get over that.

 

[Michel H]

You are forgetting that Ukraine was neutral and independent before 2014 and that didn't stop Russia from seizing parts of its territory and finally starting a full scale invasion.

Let's say Ukraine accedes to your demands. What's to stop Russia from doing exactly the same thing again?

Russia did these things because there was a civil war in Ukraine. Russia tried to help their pro-Russian friends in Ukraine.

On the other hand, is Ukraine is rid of its pro-Russian population, there should be no civil war, and no ground for Russia to intervene, and this could open an era of peace and prosperity for Ukraine (and even for Russia too).

 

[Michel H]

Who the hell cares what language they speak? Do you think Mexico really wants to be recolonized by Spain? That the U.S. wants to be English again? Does Bhutan want to merge with Nepal? Are English-speaking Indians traitors to the Great Bharat?

There are plenty of videos of Russian-speaking Ukrainians working very hard to save Ukraine - including Zelensky himself. Plenty of videos of Russian speaking people in Kharkiv coming out of their houses and shelters and enthusiastically greeting the Ukrainian troops - in Russian.

Language is no metric, at all, to gauge ones nationality identification.

Get over that.

I wouldn't say no metric at all. It is much easier to get along well with people who speak the same language as you.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Russia did these things because there was a civil war in Ukraine. Russia tried to help their pro-Russian friends in Ukraine.

On the other hand, is Ukraine is rid of its pro-Russian population, there should be no civil war, and no ground for Russia to intervene, and this could open an era of peace and prosperity for Ukraine (and even for Russia too).

Ah, so you advocate that Ukraine, once it regains it's territory, should expel all those wanting to be part of Russia to Russia, thus ensuring peace?

You really are into ethnic cleansing aren't you?

 

[Aridas]

I see no reason to believe Russians are less honest than their Western counterparts.

1) Either you missed the point actually made or you're dodging it.

2) Willful blindness and trying to point at false equivalences don't make for much of an argument and this is a skeptics forum, which means that you're not getting so much in the way of free passes here.

I think (like many members of this forum) they made a mistake by attacking Ukraine, but they are certainly not the only ones who have made an error.

"A mistake." That's one angle, I suppose. True enough, most of those here do think that Russia made a mistake by attacking Ukraine. Chances are quite decent that they'll lose and suffer catastrophe, after all. Even if they win, though, they are unlikely to end up better off. All that also pretty completely misses the reasons why Russia's invasion is being CONDEMNED by most of those here.

Russia did these things because there was a civil war in Ukraine. Russia tried to help their pro-Russian friends in Ukraine.

On the other hand, is Ukraine is rid of its pro-Russian population, there should be no civil war, and no ground for Russia to intervene, and this could open an era of peace and prosperity for Ukraine (and even for Russia too).

As noted in point number 3 in a recent previous post, this is farcical. In many ways.

I'm sure that all those "pro-Russian friends" that they kidnapped off the streets and sent off to die as cannon fodder really appreciated it, though.

 

[arthwollipot]

I see no reason to believe Russians are less honest than their Western counterparts.

Seriously? What rock have you been living under since 2000?

 

[Wildy]

Russia is currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine, mostly in the Russian speaking area (though Kherson seems to have actually a small majority of Ukrainian speakers, see this map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Map12_b.png).

And those Russian speakers are mostly ethnic Ukrainians, why does language trump ethnicity?

For comparison, the US recently invaded and occupied illegally (without a U.N. authorization, and in violation of the UN Charter) the wholes of Afghanistan and Iraq, countries which speak a completely different language and are very far away. The US also bombed illegally Yugoslavia for 3 months in 1999, something which has certainly not been forgotten in Moscow.

Good old whataboutism. How else can you justify a genocidal campaign by pointing out that other countries have also invaded places?

The actions of the US in the past don't mean that Russia is blameless now.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Who the hell cares what language they speak? Do you think Mexico really wants to be recolonized by Spain? That the U.S. wants to be English again? Does Bhutan want to merge with Nepal? Are English-speaking Indians traitors to the Great Bharat?

There are plenty of videos of Russian-speaking Ukrainians working very hard to save Ukraine - including Zelensky himself. Plenty of videos of Russian speaking people in Kharkiv coming out of their houses and shelters and enthusiastically greeting the Ukrainian troops - in Russian.

Language is no metric, at all, to gauge ones nationality identification.

Get over that.

You forget: everyone who speaks Russian automatically loves Putin and wants him to be their ruler.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

For comparison, the US recently invaded and occupied illegally (without a U.N. authorization, and in violation of the UN Charter) the wholes of Afghanistan and Iraq, countries which speak a completely different language and are very far away. The US also bombed illegally Yugoslavia for 3 months in 1999, something which has certainly not been forgotten in Moscow.

OK, let's look at that comparison.
The US invasion of Iraq was wrong, and arguably illegal. However, the US did not declare Iraq to be part of the US, did not say that Iraq had no right to exist as a nation, and has now all but left that country.
The same applies to Afghanistan. No annexation, no declaration that Afghanistan was not a real country, and again, American troops have now left.
Yugoslavia? Guess what? The same thing again. Yugoslavia was never an actual nation: it was a geographical convenience, cobbled together at the end of WWI, made up of a loose and often fractious alliance of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. Once the Iron Curtain came down, it split back up into smaller nation-states. At no point did the US try to annex any of those countries, and it has not occupied them either. I should also point out, with reference to your claim about Moscow 'not forgetting' the NATO intervention, that Tito split with Russia back in 1948. Yugoslavia was largely independent of Moscow in a number of ways. I would imagine that, if anyone in Moscow still cares about the NATO actions there, they probably approve of it more than they disapprove.
In short, if you are going to try to make historical comparisons, it would help if the examples you cite actually supported your point, rather than undermining it.

 

[Michel H]

Good old whataboutism. How else can you justify a genocidal campaign by pointing out that other countries have also invaded places?

The actions of the US in the past don't mean that Russia is blameless now.

I don't see genocide committed by the Russians in Ukraine, all I see is occasional violence committed by Russia against civilians or against civilian targets.

The firebombing of German cities by the UK and US during WWII, and the atomic bombing of two Japanese cities by the US (until Germany and Japan surrender unconditionally) were much more violent and genocidal in nature, in my opinion.

 

[Michel H]

Yugoslavia? Guess what? The same thing again. Yugoslavia was never an actual nation: it was a geographical convenience, cobbled together at the end of WWI, made up of a loose and often fractious alliance of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. Once the Iron Curtain came down, it split back up into smaller nation-states. At no point did the US try to annex any of those countries, and it has not occupied them either. I should also point out, with reference to your claim about Moscow 'not forgetting' the NATO intervention, that Tito split with Russia back in 1948. Yugoslavia was largely independent of Moscow in a number of ways. I would imagine that, if anyone in Moscow still cares about the NATO actions there, they probably approve of it more than they disapprove.

Cosmic Yak, the Yugoslavia I wrote about was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, comprising Serbia (mostly) and Montenegro (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro). In other words, I wrote about Milosevic's Yugoslavia (not Tito's one), which was an ally of Russia:

Russia and Serbia are both predominantly Slavic and Eastern Orthodox countries, which share a strong mutual cultural affinity. The countries have been close allies for centuries; and the friendship between them has been strongly maintained despite Serbia's recent attempt to maintain closer relations with the West.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Serbia_relations)

 

[Craig4]

I don't see genocide committed by the Russians in Ukraine, all I see is occasional violence committed by Russia against civilians or against civilian targets.

The firebombing of German cities by the UK and US during WWII, and the atomic bombing of two Japanese cities by the US (until Germany and Japan surrender unconditionally) were much more violent and genocidal in nature, in my opinion.

You don't see it because you think Russia committing genocide in Ukraine is a good idea.

 

[Craig4]

I see no reason to believe Russians are less honest than their Western counterparts. I think (like many members of this forum) they made a mistake by attacking Ukraine, but they are certainly not the only ones who have made an error.

Russia is currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine, mostly in the Russian speaking area (though Kherson seems to have actually a small majority of Ukrainian speakers, see this map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Map12_b.png).

For comparison, the US recently invaded and occupied illegally (without a U.N. authorization, and in violation of the UN Charter) the wholes of Afghanistan and Iraq, countries which speak a completely different language and are very far away. The US also bombed illegally Yugoslavia for 3 months in 1999, something which has certainly not been forgotten in Moscow.

It's clear you don't like it when the US and the rest of NATO take against against Russian genocide. Serbia's actions in were largely Russian backed. That is an obvious pattern. You are a genocide supporter.

Also, the 20 percent figure is dated. Ukraine took back thousands of square kilometers of their country (including some salients into the areas occupied in 2014). Kherson will fall soon. East of the river is no longer viable for the Orcs so that number will get even smaller.

 

[jeremyp]

Russia did these things because there was a civil war in Ukraine.

A civil war that Russia started and supported.

Russia tried to help their pro-Russian friends in Ukraine.

Killing everybody else is not a reasonable way to help your friends.

On the other hand, is Ukraine is rid of its pro-Russian population, there should be no civil war, and no ground for Russia to intervene, and this could open an era of peace and prosperity for Ukraine (and even for Russia too).

No, you've misunderstood. Russia's plan is to rid Ukraine of its pro-Ukraine population.

 

[Michel H]

It's clear you don't like it when the US and the rest of NATO take against against Russian genocide. Serbia's actions in were largely Russian backed. That is an obvious pattern. You are a genocide supporter.

Also, the 20 percent figure is dated. Ukraine took back thousands of square kilometers of their country (including some salients into the areas occupied in 2014). Kherson will fall soon. East of the river is no longer viable for the Orcs so that number will get even smaller.

Also, the 20 percent figure is dated.

The BBC wrote, 15 hours ago:

How much territory does Russia still occupy?
Russia still holds about 20% of Ukraine, according to the ISW.

(https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-62902029).

You are a genocide supporter.

No, I believe Ukraine should make as quickly as possible the necessary concessions, based on democracy, to end this conflict, and better protect itself. Soldiers (and civilians) are getting serious injuries, probably every day.

To the extent they are trying to retake Crimea, I believe Ukraine is actually pursuing a war of conquest, with unfortunate Western backing.