Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[Craig4]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62931224

Exhumation of mass graves in Izyum. Some people really want to talk to these Russian scum. You don't talk with Russia. You put arms and armies in front of them and make sure they know you'll use them. When they attack you, you just kill them and keep killing them until they turn around and kill their own leaders. You can't negotiate with the animals who filled these mass graves.

ETA:

https://twitter.com/WhereisRussia/status/1570432621959868417

It doesn't look like there's a need for Ukraine to talk. Killing the orcs seems to be working.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I don't know, but they did not bomb Croatia for 3 months (like NATO did with Serbia).

The Russians stood back and did nothing. Apparently their support for their supposed Serbian comrades did not extend as far as actually helping them.
NATO took action to stop massacres and ethnic cleansing.
OH! THAT'S why you disapprove! You support genocide, so you attack NATO's actions because they tried to stop genocide. Right. It all makes sense now.
This is why you continue to excuse Russian war crimes in Ukraine.
Ukraine has asked the UN to investigate the latest discoveries of mass graves in Izyum. Do you welcome that appeal, or not?

 

[Oystein]

Perhaps you could tell us also if you believe that Kosovo should be forever a province of Serbia, and that Taiwan should be forever a province of communist China.

Perhaps you should refrain from whataboutism and stop lying. These examples have rather different histories, plus you implicitly isconstrue my position.

 

[Oystein]

The law that governs elections in Ukraine is Ukrainian. Crimea never had the authority to hold a referendum because it was in contravention of Ukrainian law. One presumes that there are laws governing polling places, the timing, campaign practices and vote counting that Ukraine never enforced through the authority to manage elections. Therefore no referendum took place.

Don't be silly. By the same logic, no murder ever takes place: because it's not allowed by law.

Of course a referendum took place - albeit an illegitimate (on top of being illegal) one.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There was not a referendum in Ukraine. There was one in Crimea only.
Do you maintain that the only authority that can hold a referendum in Crimea is Ukraine?

---

Did Scotland hold a referendum, or did the UK hold a referendum in Scotland?
I think you will agree, without qualification, that Scotland, not the UK, held a referendum on independence some years ago.

Was this a legitimate refereendum? If the outcome had gone for Scottish independence, would you have accepted it as legit?

So, a referendum was held in Crimea. By, I suppose "Crimea".

Do you still maintain that the only authority that can hold a referendum in Crimea is Ukraine?

---

What deligitimizes the Crimean referendum is not so much the jurisdiction which held it, but the circumstances under which it was held. Chief among them, IMO, the speed and suddenness with which it was pushed through, without first negotiating all the terms and conditions, e.g. for material assets of economic value changing hands. There was no time to fairly inform the population, so it could make an adult choice.

The Scottish referendum was a good example of how this sort of thing is done. Many constitution contain prescriptions for processes of how to alter borders in a democratic process, should the populations (plural!) affected by it be in favor - one could study those.
The Ruscists did none of that.

Well, yes, the Scottish independence referendum was conducted by the Scottish government, but by agreement with the UK government to enable this exception to the rule that a constitutional matter like that would normally fall to the UK government.

By that example Ukraine should accept a vote for Crimea to secede if it recognised the authority of the body conducting the referendum and agreed to the referendum. Which obviously didn't happen and realistically was never going to happen.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I don't think that analogy follows. In a murder, there is a life, and the life is taken. A vote has to be held by the people who have the authority to call it, attended by by the people eligible to cast their ballots. Otherwise, it's as much a sham as an experiment with only a handful of subjects or a poll that only covers a nonrepresentative demographic. A propaganda stunt disguising itself as a real event.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The analogy is the difference between a murder and an execution. Both ways someone dies but in one instance everyone is supposed to accept the act was lawful.

The referendum has no more authority than an opinion poll and is wide open to accusations of bias.

 

[Oystein]

Well, yes, the Scottish independence referendum was conducted by the Scottish government, but by agreement with the UK government to enable this exception to the rule that a constitutional matter like that would normally fall to the UK government.

By that example Ukraine should accept a vote for Crimea to secede if it recognised the authority of the body conducting the referendum and agreed to the referendum. Which obviously didn't happen and realistically was never going to happen.

Correct.

 

[Oystein]

... A vote has to be held by the people who have the authority to call it, attended by by the people eligible to cast their ballots. Otherwise, it's as much a sham as an experiment with only a handful of subjects or a poll that only covers a nonrepresentative demographic. A propaganda stunt disguising itself as a real event.

This qualifies the referendum - but it still is a referendum.
Craig flat-out claims there was no referendum at all. That is silly.

 

[Craig4]

Don't be silly. By the same logic, no murder ever takes place: because it's not allowed by law.

Of course a referendum took place - albeit an illegitimate (on top of being illegal) one.

A referendum is a legal process. Absent that, it's just a poorly executed public opinion poll.

 

[Craig4]

This qualifies the referendum - but it still is a referendum.
Craig flat-out claims there was no referendum at all. That is silly.

You are incorrect.

 

[Michel H]

The Russians stood back and did nothing. Apparently their support for their supposed Serbian comrades did not extend as far as actually helping them.
NATO took action to stop massacres and ethnic cleansing.
OH! THAT'S why you disapprove! You support genocide, so you attack NATO's actions because they tried to stop genocide. Right. It all makes sense now.
This is why you continue to excuse Russian war crimes in Ukraine.
Ukraine has asked the UN to investigate the latest discoveries of mass graves in Izyum. Do you welcome that appeal, or not?

I don't support genocide, and I believe it is legitimate and useful to investigate when mass graves are discovered.

Whether this investigation is done by the U.N. or not doesn't seem really important to me. It is likely that Ukraine is trying to publicize as much as it can this sad incident, and inviting the U.N. is part of this strategy. Perhaps the U.N. could just supervise.

We know that Russia is mostly not welcome in the regions of Ukraine it has invaded recently, so I am frankly not very surprised by a discovery of mass graves.

What is really important is to end this war as quickly as possible. In order to do this, it would perhaps be useful for the U.N. to send some teams in Crimea and in the Donbas republics to try to gauge and assess pro-Russian opinions in these areas in an objective way. Because a good settlement should be based on what citizens like, what can make them feel relaxed and happy.

I believe it doesn't really help to bash or insult Russia all day long: Orcs, Ruscists and so on. It is better to be calm and respectful, as much as possible.

 

[Craig4]

I don't support genocide, and I believe it is legitimate and useful to investigate when mass graves are discovered.

Whether this investigation is done by the U.N. or not doesn't seem really important to me. It is likely that Ukraine is trying to publicize as much as it can this sad incident, and inviting the U.N. is part of this strategy. Perhaps the U.N. could just supervise.

We know that Russia is mostly not welcome in the regions of Ukraine it has invaded recently, so I am frankly not very surprised by a discovery of mass graves.

What is really important is to end this war as quickly as possible. In order to do this, it would perhaps be useful for the U.N. to send some teams in Crimea and in the Donbas republics to try to gauge and assess pro-Russian opinions in these areas in an objective way. Because a good settlement should be based on what citizens like, what can make them feel relaxed and happy.

I believe it doesn't really help to bash or insult Russia all day long: Orcs, Ruscists and so on. It is better to be calm and respectful, as much as possible.

Respect Russia? Don't be obscene.

 

[erwinl]

I don't support genocide, and I believe it is legitimate and useful to investigate when mass graves are discovered.

Whether this investigation is done by the U.N. or not doesn't seem really important to me. It is likely that Ukraine is trying to publicize as much as it can this sad incident, and inviting the U.N. is part of this strategy. Perhaps the U.N. could just supervise.

We know that Russia is mostly not welcome in the regions of Ukraine it has invaded recently, so I am frankly not very surprised by a discovery of mass graves.

What is really important is to end this war as quickly as possible. In order to do this, it would perhaps be useful for the U.N. to send some teams in Crimea and in the Donbas republics to try to gauge and assess pro-Russian opinions in these areas in an objective way. Because a good settlement should be based on what citizens like, what can make them feel relaxed and happy.

I believe it doesn't really help to bash or insult Russia all day long: Orcs, Ruscists and so on. It is better to be calm and respectful, as much as possible.

While the Russians are committing mass killings in places where they are

mostly not welcome in the regions of Ukraine it has invaded recently

so that we should not be

very surprised by a discovery of mass graves

.

Because Russian feelings trump other peoples lives?

 

[Michel H]

While the Russians are committing mass killings in places where they are so that we should not be .

Because Russian feelings trump other peoples lives?

No, I don't see why Russian feelings should be more important than Ukrainian feelings.

Russia, which came uninvited, is probably facing some violent resistance by local citizens. Then it presumably fought back, and, as a result, there are mass graves. Mass graves are probably not uncommon (sadly), whenever there is a war.

 

[Craig4]

No, I don't see why Russian feelings should be more important than Ukrainian feelings.

Russia, which came uninvited, is probably facing some violent resistance by local citizens. Then it presumably fought back, and, as a result, there are mass graves. Mass graves are probably not uncommon (sadly), whenever there is a war.

You really are pro-genocide.

 

[erwinl]

No, I don't see why Russian feelings should be more important than Ukrainian feelings.

Russia, which came uninvited, is probably facing some violent resistance by local citizens. Then it presumably fought back, and, as a result, there are mass graves. Mass graves are probably not uncommon (sadly), whenever there is a war.

I asked whether Russian feelings should trump other peoples lives.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

No, I don't see why Russian feelings should be more important than Ukrainian feelings.

Russia, which came uninvited, is probably facing some violent resistance by local citizens. Then it presumably fought back, and, as a result, there are mass graves. Mass graves are probably not uncommon (sadly), whenever there is a war.

Educate yourself.

Evidence of torture, civilians killed when Russia bombed their homes- these bodies are not those of partisans killed in fighting. These are murders. You really need to stop making excuses for Russian atrocities and face the facts.

 

[Wildy]

What is really important is to end this war as quickly as possible.

Considering that Russia will only accept the capitulation of Ukraine that's not something that's going to happen any time soon.

I get that you would argue that Ukraine should because human lives or some twaddle you don't actually believe but why should Ukraine reward Russia for the aggression against them?

 

[Craig4]

Ukraine is doing its part to end the war quickly. Kherson is just a matter of time, then Crimea is under threat.