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“Woke”

Oh yea, forgot about this example of peak wokeness.

TRIGGER WARNING/CONTENT NOTE: Story deals with a coffee shop and Instagram with a possible inclusion of Libs of Tiktok.

Teal Deer: White cishet male coffee shop owner seeks marginalized wage slaves only, gets called out and doubles down and issues notpology. Deletes Instagram post,of course.

[White] cis males are back of the line’: Victoria coffee shop faces backlash after job posting

“At this time, yt (whitey) cis males are back of the line,” the job ad concluded.


But but but...they're good discriminatory hiring practices, right?
 
Of course there is the issue that most of those terms amalgamate a bunch of groups that don't necessarily have any ting in common.
What they have in common (from a woke perspective) is the experience of oppression within any given white supremacist cisheteropatriarchy, e.g. Australia, Britain, Canada.
 
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wareyin & HansMustermann this has devolved into nothing but a personal bickering match between the two of you. Drop it now.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat


ETA:

I have taken a 100% arbitrary point in which to split the bickering to AAH, there was no way I was going to try and unpick any relevant points you may have made.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
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But but but...they're good discriminatory hiring practices, right?
Woke AF, IMO :)



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Former pet's of the revolution, now cast aside. They are the new white working class.

Not even sure it's as much that, as just

A. the implication that any other made up grievance is just as valid as theirs was, or usable interchangeably with theirs, or can just borrow the language to hide itself from criticism by association. I mean, that Cat Pause body-shape activist we talked about in another thread was explicitly making the point that yeah, she's taken the whole language from the gays rights movement, starting with the "coming out" expression, and just redefined it to mean her BMI issues. And I don't even mean conspicuously used it that way or anything. She actually SAYS that that's what she's doing.

B. the idea has come up even on this board that there's a sort of a "we supported you, now you support us" expectation from some people. And especially this one strikes me as the actual homophobic position. It means, basically, they didn't necessarily support it because they believed it was the right thing to do, but just as some favour to the gays, and now it's time to pay back with another favour.

I'm not gay myself -- "I Wish I Was Queer So I Could Get Chicks" as that song by Bloodhound Gang went -- but I think I'd be pretty miffed myself if anyone was doing that to my cause, whatever that cause might be. Like, make a logical case for your position, don't just try to piggyback on mine by association. Especially when the association is as flimsy as hijacking the language. In fact, don't make the association at all to devalue it to the level of yeah, it's the same thing as when a Southpark-round gal thinks doctors oppress her when they tell her that it's unhealthy.
 
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I do wonder about names for things. Why is it nobody complains that we don't call Japan, Nippon but its important that we call Peking, Beijing?

Or pick your City/nation/nationality of choice for the comparison.
They're called endonyms and exonyms, and it's kind of complicated. In a lot of cases it's basically because of colonialism, which is one reason why some places are reverting, or attempting to revert, to endonyms.
 
They're called endonyms and exonyms, and it's kind of complicated. In a lot of cases it's basically because of colonialism, which is one reason why some places are reverting, or attempting to revert, to endonyms.
I think there's always going to be some overlap, depending on political and social forces, but in general, I think there's a difference between an imposed, colonial name for a place and the actual translation into another language, and to some extent I think it's up to the people to whom the term is applied to decide whether it's tainted.

We are asked to call Beijing Beijing, but not to call China Zhōngguó, in part because it's an English word when we speak English. Obviously there's some fluidity here. How long was Burma in the language before the country became Myanmar? Or Sri Lanka? But for the governments or the people of those countries, their former names carry too much colonial baggage, if not actual denial of their identity, and even if we might consider it unnecessary or inconvenient (or embarrassing), we return in a way to the issue of why our notion of identity should prevail over theirs.

I'm reminded of an old school teacher, who on the first day of class asked everyone what their nickname was. I said I do not have a nickname. I'm [name]. He said, "fine, I'll call you [nickname]." There was nothing inherently offensive about the nickname, but because it was imposed against my wishes, I found it so.

If a Muslim does not want to be called a Moslem or a Mussalman, fine. If a Yehudi doesn't mind being called a Jew, fine. If our identity is not ours whose is it?
 
If a Muslim doesn't want to be called a Musselman, he's got a serious beef with all the Brazilians, Portuguese, and francophones of the world, for starters. One begins to wonder when the Académie Française will get the Charlie Hebdo treatment.
 
I do wonder about names for things. Why is it nobody complains that we don't call Japan, Nippon but its important that we call Peking, Beijing?

Because Japan and the Japanese at large are okay with those labels on the part of people speaking different languages, while China/the Chinese are not. What about this is so difficult to grasp?
 
If a Muslim doesn't want to be called a Musselman, he's got a serious beef with all the Brazilians, Portuguese, and francophones of the world, for starters. One begins to wonder when the Académie Française will get the Charlie Hebdo treatment.

The debate so far has been about terms used by English speakers.
Is there any indication that French Muslims are offended by the French word for Muslim?
 
The debate so far has been about terms used by English speakers.
Is there any indication that French Muslims are offended by the French word for Muslim?

There's not a lot of daylight between "musselman", "muçulmano", and "musulman". It seems to me that English speaking Muslims would find the Portuguese and French variations just as offensive as the English one. Conversely, if French-speaking Muslims have no problem with the French term, there's not much reason for the English speakers to take offense at the English variation.
 
Because Japan and the Japanese at large are okay with those labels on the part of people speaking different languages, while China/the Chinese are not. What about this is so difficult to grasp?

They why it matters to some folks and not others.
 
Conversely, if French-speaking Muslims have no problem with the French term, there's not much reason for the English speakers to take offense at the English variation.
I am fairly skeptical of this claim & don't think that's how language works; one cannot just borrow terms and expect them to have the same valence. For example, "Vidas ****** Importam" is an affirmative slogan in Brazil, but I wouldn't advise using the middle word (especially in masculine form) to describe African Americans.
 
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I think also that there's a big and important difference between what one calls a person who doesn't mind, and what one calls a person who does mind. It doesn't matter what some imagined person in a theoretical situation might or might not object to. It does matter (or so I believe) if a person says outright "don't call me that" in a place and a language that are present. I think aside perhaps from some inconvenient peculiarity, falsehood or harm, a person's identity ought to be his business and not yours.

Languages and the words we use for minorities evolve, and if a term is not the current, accepted English term, then it's reasonable to presume that a person who insists on some other term is doing so in order to be controversial or offensive, or to be expressing in a backhanded way his disapproval of social progress.
 
I am fairly skeptical of this claim & don't think that's how language works; one cannot just borrow terms and expect them to have the same valence. For example, "Vidas ****** Importam" is an affirmative slogan in Brazil, but I wouldn't advise using the middle word (especially in masculine form) to describe African Americans.

Context is important, as is the level of education of the criticizer. I was once accused by the host of a talkback radio show of being a racist when I described the the NZ Government's policy on compensation* as "niggardly".

I would expect a well known radio host with degrees in journalism to have a better vocabulary than he did.

* NOTE: It was a discussion about compensation for former mental patients at Carrington Psychiatric Hospital who been abused and mistreated staff, in particular, and very well know NZ activist and her daughter - if The Atheist sees this post, he will know exactly who I'm talking about!
 
I think aside perhaps from some inconvenient peculiarity, falsehood or harm, a person's identity ought to be his business and not yours.
The falsehood part can get a bit tricky. Someone says "I identify as Cherokee," then it's still perfectly okay to refuse to call them Cherokee if they aren't enrolled in the tribe. If that same person says, "Call me Inola Black Fox, if you don't that's deadnaming and hate speech, then you're in something of a pickle. Basically, identity is either a social construct or an individual choice, but you have to know when to switch.
 
Context is important, as is the level of education of the criticizer. I was once accused by the host of a talkback radio show of being a racist when I described the the NZ Government's policy on compensation* as "niggardly".

I would expect a well known radio host with degrees in journalism to have a better vocabulary than he did.

* NOTE: It was a discussion about compensation for former mental patients at Carrington Psychiatric Hospital who been abused and mistreated staff, in particular, and very well know NZ activist and her daughter - if The Atheist sees this post, he will know exactly who I'm talking about!

That's a word that gets folks in the US in "trouble" every once in awhile. By in trouble, mostly the accusers get ridiculed but it makes the news. That and I think someone brought up Blackhole, that was also a news story. Some politician in the US got accused of racism for calling a local government agency a blackhole of paperwork.
 

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