“Woke”

[shuttlt]

That's a good question, but you dodged mine. Are you aware of any other GOP platform changes requested by the Trump Campaign?

I don't care. trump clearly represents a significant level of change over and above what may or may not be in the platform.

ETA: This is important, b/c if it's the only one that tells us something about whether the Kyiv/Kiev linguistic distinction has political salience to the previous administration.

No it isn't. Nobody was going about a year ago indicating anything by their spelling or pronunciation of Kiev. Nobody knew. There are historic English spellings and pronunciations of all sorts of foreign cities. It's like suddenly deciding it is desperately important to pronounce Berlin like you are part of the cast of Cabaret.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Actually, I'm willing to bet that most people are still pronouncing Kyiv wrong. See, the "y" there (or in Chernobyl or a few others) isn't the same as any pronunciation of "y" in English. It's a phoneme that English doesn't even actually have, and which you literally never had to use before in English. Here's how it's actually pronounced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uk-Київ.ogg

So basically it's just a wank that they still say it wrong, but a more fashionable kind of wrong than the other wrong way to say it

Still, as long as it's only something people only decide to do it themselves, sure, they can knock themselves out. It's only when they think it makes some other people worse for not doing the 'right' kind of wrong pronunciation that it becomes silly

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

If they asked me to I would! I sure as **** would do the trivial amount of work it would take to not pronounce it the way Germans do during WWII! I also don't call Taiwan 'Chinese Taipei'. If Japan had a movement to get people to say Nippon instead, yeah, I'd do that too.

Well, good luck with that, because some involve phonemes you don't even have in your language (e.g., yes, Kyiv or Chernobyl) or letters you don't even have on your keyboard (e.g., since we're talking France, "Besançon"). Or here's one I wish you good luck with on both accounts: Târnăveni. Hell, good luck with even the name of the country or language that's in: România and respectively Română. Hint: those are not accents or marks to pronounce it long or short or whatever. They're different phonemes.

 

[Checkmite]

A handful of black social media users, started using it to refer to someone who recognizes examples of systemic racism in American government and society.

Old white conservative men, and by transference those people who allow old white conservative men to do their thinking for them, started using it to refer to any and all observations or complaints of racism against non-whites; and then eventually for - quite literally, in the actual sense of "literal" - using it for anything they didn't like. Anything to do with gay rights is now mocked as "woke". Anything to do with anti-capitalism. Feminism. Even scientific realism - it's quite common to see conservative politicians dismiss things like climate change policies and vaccination science as "woke", or even...completely out of left-field things, like bike lanes. A conservative pundit recently excoriated as "woke" a straightforward dinosaur documentary that depicted a CGI mother T-Rex caring for its young. It "means" everything, and therefore nothing.

From a practical standpoint, it is a signal from a conservative commentator that the thing being called "woke" is something the audience should be angry about and reflexively oppose.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Of course the performers are going to insist that admitting to microaggressions, and respecting neopronouns, and checking your privilege is about nothing more than simple politeness. But still it moves.

At the risk of repeating myself, what people do in the name of being polite is usually acknowledged by everyone else as their own business. No matter what southern white male alt-right nazi or other strawman is brought up as the only one who'd object, actually, no, even that one isn't usually objecting to THAT. He's not going to follow anyone around to call them "woke" if they tipped a black waitress, or gave their seat to a black woman, or referred to someone with their preferred "hir" instead of "her" when they're not around. (Actual pronoun used by some furries.) Knock yourself out.

The objection generally arises when one decides to browbeat others about what they should be doing. Only then, well, to again use one of the furries' preferred words (I'm all considerate and $#!& about others prefferred words, see?): yiff off

Not the least, because not everyone agrees even what IS actually polite even when they try to be polite beyond the bare minimum of saying "please" and "thanks". Much less when having to support why telling you what words are you allowed to do when they're not even present is actually politeness and not an entitlement. I mean, I actually worked with a guy who thought he's being polite and nice and $#!& when he literally told another coworker that she's "very smart for a woman". No, seriously, that wasn't him trying to be offensive, that was his own example of how he's actually a sensitive and polite guy when we guys were talking at the smoking place.

 

[Darat]

Just come across a great example of the third defintion I gave for “woke”:

Courtesy of a 'Woke' Professor...

Carnegie Mellon University has condemned social media posts by one of its professors after Dr Uju Anya wished the Queen an “excruciating” death and tweeted that she hoped the Queen would die “in agony.”

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/worl...-wishing-queen-excruciating-death/ar-AA11CyOC

 

[d4m10n]

So basically it's just a wank that they still say it wrong...

I already pointed out that our pronunciation will be imperfect at #172.

...but a more fashionable kind of wrong than the other wrong way to say it

Trying to say the name of the city the way its residents do—as opposed to the way the invading armies do—strikes me as something a bit more politically salient than wearing white after labor day.

 

[jimbob]

discussion about whether the term "moslem" is offensive split to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361396

Posted By: jimbob

 

[bruto]

Personally I have zero tolerance for the proposition that foreign speakers should adjust their foreign accents to accommodate some political divide between different factions of native speakers. A Ukrainian wants me to pronounce Kiev the way born Ukrainians do, he damn well better explain it to me in perfect newscaster English.

Why shouldn't a Ukrainian prefer that you use the Ukrainian name of a Ukrainian city instead of the name used by the people who are bombing it.

I think there is a difference, here, that depends on why the term is used. Kyiv was Kyiv before the Soviet Union colonized Ukraine, and the fact that it was called Kiev for many years does not change the fact that it's a Russian version of a Ukrainian city, and no more anglicized than Kyiv. You seem to be equating the issue of using anglicized names with that of using Russianized ones.

I am all for sticking with anglicized words for foreign names that have been around a long time. It's kind of twee to insist that we talk about "Paree" and the like. But this isn't that case. Your suggestion sounds a bit more like saying that a term you used as a child should be accepted by all no matter what has changed. But things do change. You can't go to Bechuanaland any more no matter how many stamps you have in your album.

I don't think "Kiev" should be a matter of instant offense, given that not everyone is tuned in to everything. But I think it would indeed be boorish and stupid to insist on calling Kyiv Kiev once one knows the difference and the history, or if a person for whom that difference is important asks you to change the way you say it.

 

[tyr_13]

Well, good luck with that, because some involve phonemes you don't even have in your language

Well it's a good thing I know more than one.

(e.g., yes, Kyiv or Chernobyl) or letters you don't even have on your keyboard (e.g., since we're talking France, "Besançon"). Or here's one I wish you good luck with on both accounts: Târnăveni. Hell, good luck with even the name of the country or language that's in: România and respectively Română. Hint: those are not accents or marks to pronounce it long or short or whatever. They're different phonemes.

'You can't get it perfect so don't even try' is a hand wave. It addresses nothing of substance that has been brought up.

I wouldn't expect someone who was not a native American English speaker to say 'New York City' perfectly, but if they insisted they should be able to call it 'Neo Amsterdam', I'd know they were being a jerk.

And if someone does so explicitly because 'it might get me called racist by the woke' then the 'jerk' is self-identifying as a jerk.

 

[ahhell]

I do wonder about names for things. Why is it nobody complains that we don't call Japan, Nippon but its important that we call Peking, Beijing?

Or pick your City/nation/nationality of choice for the comparison.

 

[Brainster]

Nobody picks a political position because they enjoy the idea that it will cause others to suffer, huh? Or is that not "bad guy" enough for you?

Did you miss this part of the second post (or just ignore it because it was inconvenient to your argument):

So, in choosing the lesser of two evils, I now fully stand with the scotus on this matter.

It explains a lot that liberals actually think conservatives know they are being evil but they do it anyway to pwn the libs. Simple minds seek simple solutions.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm going to leave off the whole Kyiv/Kiev thing for now, lest it become its own thread.

Here are a couple other examples of how wokethink is often about policing language for the sake of modifying minds:

1) Back when the forum's own DrBuzz0 was being #metooed over allegations of wanton upskirtery (this was before people even knew the term "selfie-stick"), I was repeatedly upbraided for misgendering the adult human female who had been wearing the skirt in question. Evidently they are non-binary, or at least they were at the time, and I was failing to validate her their identity by not making a note of it. Good lord, I almost did it again right there.

2) Here is another good example, quoted from wikipedia.

Trans woman is often spelled with a space, with trans as an adjective modifying the noun woman, similar to Asian woman, tall woman, fat woman, etc. The unspaced spelling transwoman is sometimes used interchangeably, including by a few transgender people. However, it is often associated with views (notably gender-critical feminism) that hold transgender women are not women, and thus require a separate word from woman to describe them. For this reason many transgender people find transwoman offensive.

I recall seeing forum members being gently upbraided for using the unspaced spelling (on occasion) in the Thread That Shall Not Be Named, because that usage may signal adherence to those on the Proudly Wrong Side of History.

3) Cutting edge terms like BIPOC, AAPI, Latinx, LGBTQIA+, etc. used in lieu of more outdated formerly politically correct terms such as African American, Asian American, Hispanic, LGBT, etc. For more examples, see this NPR style guide. Most of the time, the new acronym or neologism is intended to be more inclusive and signal solidarity with the oppressed groups in question.

 

[shuttlt]

Cutting edge terms like BIPOC, AAPI, Latinx, LGBTQIA+, etc. used in lieu of more outdated formerly politically correct terms such as African American, Asian American, Hispanic, LGBT, etc. For more examples, see this NPR style guide. Most of the time, the new acronym or neologism is intended to be more inclusive and signal solidarity with the oppressed groups in question.

That worked super well for latinx. I recall there were battles over womxn as well, with it being both more and less offensive than women. Some of these words are like that idea of sticking a piece of buttered toast to a cats back, so that if it falls it will hover, spinning inches above the ground as the universe decrees that the toast has to land butter side down and the cat has to land on it's feet.

 

[shuttlt]

I do wonder about names for things. Why is it nobody complains that we don't call Japan, Nippon but its important that we call Peking, Beijing?

Or pick your City/nation/nationality of choice for the comparison.

Japan lost, and the defeated regime were right wing nationalists. China were communists. The sorts of people who are concerned about the microagressive harms that calling the country by the wrong name maybe have more sympathy for one than the other. Additionally, Japan has kind of been the US bitch since the war, so who cares what they call themselves. If Peking say they are Beijing now, we give more of a ****.

 

[ahhell]

3) Cutting edge terms like BIPOC, AAPI, Latinx, LGBTQIA+, etc. used in lieu of more outdated formerly politically correct terms such as African American, Asian American, Hispanic, LGBT, etc. For more examples, see this NPR style guide. Most of the time, the new acronym or neologism is intended to be more inclusive and signal solidarity with the oppressed groups in question.

Of course there is the issue that most of those terms amalgamate a bunch of groups that don't necessarily have any ting in common.

BIPOC, appears to mean, not white.
AAPI, Anyone with ancestry from Between the Ural mountains and the West Coast of the Americas.
LGBTQIA+, not cisgendered and hetro.

The are alienating some members of the groups they intend on including. I've that especially from Gay men and Lesbians.

 

[shuttlt]

I've that especially from Gay men and Lesbians.

Former pet's of the revolution, now cast aside. They are the new white working class.

 

[wareyin]

Did you miss this part of the second post (or just ignore it because it was inconvenient to your argument):



It explains a lot that liberals actually think conservatives know they are being evil but they do it anyway to pwn the libs. Simple minds seek simple solutions.

No, I actually based my opinion on Warp12 being anti-Roe just because it pisses off the libs on him saying that multiple times. But, hey, sure, if you take one small part of his quote out of the context of that quote and that entire thread, and squint juuuuust right, you can get to act all superior and claim other people are simple minded.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Actually, if you'd actually read more of his messages (I know, who has time to read, right?), you'd see that generally no, he's not supporting anything to piss off the liberals. He just seems to basically support taking more ground than you need, so you can keep the bits you actually wanted.

Hell, even your first link to his message just pretty much says he doesn't care about certain issues that would piss off the liberals, which is why it's just equal. If causing more damage were the actual motivation, he'd prefer that version.


Plus, even going by your weird interpretation, what you have is ONE weird outlier, not something that would support extrapolating about conservatives as a whole. It's often said that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". But this isn't even that. What that extrapolation is, it's insisting that even the singular is "data".

 

[wareyin]

Actually, if you'd actually read more of his messages (I know, who has time to read, right?), you'd see that generally no, he's not supporting anything to piss off the liberals. He just seems to basically support taking more ground than you need, so you can keep the bits you actually wanted.

Hell, even your first link to his message just pretty much says he doesn't care about certain issues that would piss off the liberals, which is why it's just equal. If causing more damage were the actual motivation, he'd prefer that version.


Plus, even going by your weird interpretation, what you have is ONE weird outlier, not something that would support extrapolating about conservatives as a whole. It's often said that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". But this isn't even that. What that extrapolation is, it's insisting that even the singular is "data".

If you can read Warp12's posts and come to the conclusion that he isn't taking positions to piss off liberals, I suspect you either hardly read his posts in the politics section or have severe reading comprehension issues.