“Woke”

[Thermal]

Was Cracker Barrel (old southern americana barn/country store style restaurant chain well known for discriminatory hiring practices) "woke" for simply adding plant based sausage to the menu?

(note, Cracker Barrel didn't "push" plant based sausage on anyone, even the NYPost article title is exaggerating the restaurant's actions to make them seem more in your face than they really were)

I wouldn't think so. One of my kids is a vegetarian, and appreciates a variety of non-meat options.

 

[wareyin]

I wouldn't think so. One of my kids is a vegetarian, and appreciates a variety of non-meat options.

I wouldn't think so either, but 'offers options to people not exactly like me' as the definition being used of "woke" certainly seems to be par for the course.

 

[Suddenly]

Woke is essentially equivalent to sanctimonious, particularly in the religious sense. Note that several of the woke defenders around here have referred to their superior moral code.

If people who support an position are themselves being sanctimonious this has nothing to do with the validity of that position.

And, yes, if a person sees something as a moral issue that person is going to think they are on the right side of that issue. That's how that works.

 

[Thermal]

It is, as much as any other dialect use is. It was a refrain reminding other black people to be aware of the dangers they faced as black people in the USA, especially in regards to the police - it was originally used as "stay woke".

To assert this as factual, you would have to positively identify the originator and get confirmation on their rationale for their word choice. I don't think that's do-able. You might find the earliest cached tweet or something, but you'd have to show that the tweeterer wasn't repeating an already popular spoken phrase.

If you can't demonstrate that using the phrase "I'm woke to X" was already a common part of black speech prior to the current usage, you are kinda saying "this sounds like something a black guy would say". That's not a good look.

 

[Darat]

To assert this as factual, you would have to positively identify the originator and get confirmation on their rationale for their word choice. I don't think that's do-able. You might find the earliest cached tweet or something, but you'd have to show that the tweeterer wasn't repeating an already popular spoken phrase.

If you can't demonstrate that using the phrase "I'm woke to X" was already a common part of black speech prior to the current usage, you are kinda saying "this sounds like something a black guy would say". That's not a good look.

You are so far off the page I really don't know where to start.

It predates the internet by quite a few decades.

I've just gone to the fount of all-knowledge(ish) to refresh my memory in case I was wrong and it is there in black and white - goes back to the 1930s.

Woke

"... Black American folk singer-songwriter Huddie Ledbetter, a.k.a. Lead Belly, uses the phrase near the end of the recording of his 1938 song "Scottsboro Boys", which tells the story of nine black teenagers accused of raping two white women, saying: "I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there – best stay woke, keep their eyes open."[9][10] Aja Romano writes at Vox that this represents "Black Americans' need to be aware of racially motivated threats and the potential dangers of white America".[4] J. Saunders Redding recorded a comment from an African American United Mine Workers official in 1940, stating: "Let me tell you buddy. Waking up is a damn sight harder than going to sleep, but we'll stay woke up longer."[11]

By the mid-20th century, woke had come to mean "well-informed" or "aware",[12] especially in a political or cultural sense.[6] The Oxford English Dictionary traces the earliest such usage to a 1962 New York Times Magazine article titled "If You're Woke You Dig It" by African-American novelist William Melvin Kelley, describing the appropriation of Black slang by white beatniks.[6]

Woke had gained more political connotations by 1971 when the play Garvey Lives! by Barry Beckham included the line: "I been sleeping all my life. And now that Mr. Garvey done woke me up, I'm gon' stay woke. And I'm gon help him wake up other black folk."[13][14] Marcus Garvey had himself exhorted his early 20th century audiences, "Wake up Ethiopia! Wake up Africa!"[5] Romano describes this as "a call to global Black citizens to become more socially and politically conscious".[4] ..."​

 

[d4m10n]

Looking at d4m10ns links above and clicking on #StayWoke, peeps are still using it to describe their wokability quite seriously.

The very first time I saw a European American individual use "woke" in the OP sense of the term, it was a (former) Skepchick calling herself "woke AF" in her bio. That was maybe 2013-2014 or so, back when I was keeping up with skeptic blogs. At the time, progressive thought leaders (like the fine ladies at Skepchick) were just starting to tune in to a phrase which had been around in AAVE^WP for several decades, one which hadn't yet peaked and subsequently been appropriated by conservatives as a term of dismissal and disparagement.

 

[Suddenly]

It could be, if you're an out of touch white guy who lumps all "black people stuff" in the same pile. Is that really the discussion level here?

It's all in essence just conservatives repeating progressive terms in a mocking tone of voice to assure themselves that the criticism contained within is baseless.


It isn't worth getting into the finer points of what these terms are meant to be in that context. It all comes back to people who benefit from inequality using their feelings as an excuse to ignore the issue.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

I thought 'woke' was coined by the woke themselves (on Tumblr et al).

 

[Rolfe]

What does that have to do with my post?

 

[Darat]

The very first time I saw a European American individual use "woke" in the OP sense of the term, it was a (former) Skepchick calling herself "woke AF" in her bio. That was maybe 2013-2014 or so, back when I was keeping up with skeptic blogs. At the time, progressive thought leaders (like the fine ladies at Skepchick) were just starting to tune in to a phrase which had been around in AAVE^WP for several decades, one which hadn't yet peaked and subsequently been appropriated by conservatives as a term of dismissal and disparagement.

Thanks for those links especially the one to the NY Times page - I was able to read that article in its entirety and it provides such a vivid peek back into American mainstream culture.

 

[Suddenly]

Well, if that's the reason it's obviously sensible, but this is the first I ever heard of it. Maybe actually explaining the situation rather than cancelling people who never saw the non-existent memo might be a good idea?

I'd be interested in an example of a person using the word "Moslem" who was immediately "cancelled" with no other context.

Or is this one of those things where ever being corrected in a way that causes any discomfort is what is meant by being canceled?

 

[Darat]

I thought 'woke' was coined by the woke themselves (on Tumblr et al).

Tumblr of the 1930s?

 

[Darat]

Well, if that's the reason it's obviously sensible, but this is the first I ever heard of it. Maybe actually explaining the situation rather than cancelling people who never saw the non-existent memo might be a good idea?

Same thing when people refer to Scottish people as "Scotch". Once the reason why this is offensive is explained, they tend to stop doing it. But it's not reasonable to take offence if no offence was meant.

Example of anyone “ cancelling people” who use Moslem?

 

[Myriad]

What does that have to do with my post?

Your post dared to suggest the heretical notion that it is not always necessary to take the maximum amount of offense possible. If the plebs were to embrace the dangerous notion that they should unify to redress systematic economic injustices instead of being offended by one another, it would slightly annoy the rich. So it is imperative that posts such as yours be immediately equated with bigotry, with or without any logical pretext.

 

[wareyin]

What does that have to do with my post?

In context, we have the poster who originally brought up and used the antiquated, known to be offensive spelling pointing out that those intent on using it will use alternate spellings in an obvious attempt to avoid autocensors. And we have you, claiming that unless offense is intended, no offense should be taken. (As an aside, I've seen more than a few Scots unhappy to be referred to as Scotch. It seems even using your example that offence is taken regardless of intent).

I realize this may be a cultural issue, but I hear your insistence that "Moslem" is fine and dandy in the same vein as an old white southern American insisting that using "negroes" is fine and dandy. A long time ago, maybe it was. But it hasn't been for a long time, as I demonstrated with a 20 year old link. And also as you yourself could discover with a cursory google.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Not using a word that translates to calling the adherents of a religion evil being waived off as "wokeness" couldn't be more on the nose.

Or it could be just the way they learned the word back then. E.g., in German it used to be the only way to say it before 1990. Muslim seems to have caught up in the meantime, but "moslem" is still in the Duden as a perfectly normal word.

It also seems to be not so clear cut to anyone who hasn't been looking for reasons to be offended on behalf of someone else, in a language you don't actually speak, that it actually means anything evil. There were actual interviews with actual Muslims on the street and pretty much it came up mostly that they prefer the way it's in Arabic, or that it sounds better. You'd think that if it actually meant "evil", you'd get a few more answers saying just that.

I'm also pretty sure that one of the actual Muslims at the previous company was pronouncing it that way.

Oh wait, except apparently it doesn't mean that, unless you replace a letter with another letter. Which is as stupid as taking offense at calling someone "married" because if you change just one phoneme it sounds like saying they're "marred".


Now personally I'm all, meh, if they want to be called Muslims, fine by me. I don't even need to know why.

But that eagerness to take offense even if you have to play stupid language games for it, and assume some evil intent as the default... yeah... that's the kind of problem some of us see with a certain subculture nowadays. You can call it "woke" or anything else, but that's the problem.

 

[Thermal]

You are so far off the page I really don't know where to start.

It predates the internet by quite a few decades.

Ya needs to work on your comprehension, ducky. I'm not far off the page. I was spot on, saying you would have to show it was already in use rather than a bald assertion. You did so. Congratulations!

I've just gone to the fount of all-knowledge(ish) to refresh my memory in case I was wrong and it is there in black and white - goes back to the 1930s.

Woke

"... Black American folk singer-songwriter Huddie Ledbetter, a.k.a. Lead Belly, uses the phrase near the end of the recording of his 1938 song "Scottsboro Boys", which tells the story of nine black teenagers accused of raping two white women, saying: "I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there – best stay woke, keep their eyes open."[9][10] Aja Romano writes at Vox that this represents "Black Americans' need to be aware of racially motivated threats and the potential dangers of white America".[4] J. Saunders Redding recorded a comment from an African American United Mine Workers official in 1940, stating: "Let me tell you buddy. Waking up is a damn sight harder than going to sleep, but we'll stay woke up longer."[11]

By the mid-20th century, woke had come to mean "well-informed" or "aware",[12] especially in a political or cultural sense.[6] The Oxford English Dictionary traces the earliest such usage to a 1962 New York Times Magazine article titled "If You're Woke You Dig It" by African-American novelist William Melvin Kelley, describing the appropriation of Black slang by white beatniks.[6]

Woke had gained more political connotations by 1971 when the play Garvey Lives! by Barry Beckham included the line: "I been sleeping all my life. And now that Mr. Garvey done woke me up, I'm gon' stay woke. And I'm gon help him wake up other black folk."[13][14] Marcus Garvey had himself exhorted his early 20th century audiences, "Wake up Ethiopia! Wake up Africa!"[5] Romano describes this as "a call to global Black citizens to become more socially and politically conscious".[4] ..."​

Great. So the expression was found in a few examples, and had the same meaning. "Mr. Garvey done woke me up, and I'm gon' stay woke" is certainly the same usage.

Interesting that one of the issues cited was a black guy bitching about beatnics culturally appropriating black speech. I guess we have to discuss if white folk can actually use "Woke"?

 

[Suddenly]

But that eagerness to take offense even if you have to play stupid language games for it, and assume some evil intent as the default... yeah... that's the kind of problem some of us see with a certain subculture nowadays. You can call it "woke" or anything else, but that's the problem.

People about whom this word is being used find it offensive and wish that other people stop using it. Most people stopped using it.

That's what you call "playing stupid language games." Which is you determining what should offend other people, and in general your opinion doesn't matter.

The ones eagerly taking offense are not the people asking the word not be used, it's the people who are imagining great personal harm because they might feel foolish if corrected.

 

[Suddenly]

Interesting that one of the issues cited was a black guy bitching about beatnics culturally appropriating black speech. I guess we have to discuss if white folk can actually use "Woke"?

If it makes you feel any better, have at it. Part of working through these things is that these conversations can be interesting to people who aren't waking up at night in terror of being canceled because they wore the wrong color socks and some sophomore at Oberlin once wrote a editorial about how those socks are offensive to the colorblind.

I mean, try not to get to "don't even think about using ranch dressing if you've never raised cattle" type stupid, but usually when people who don't at all care about cultural appropriation try to use it as a gotcha that's where it usually ends up.

 

[bruto]

Woke is essentially equivalent to sanctimonious. Note that several of the woke defenders around here have referred to their superior moral code.

I do think that is what many people who use the word mean, and it is, to my mind, a cheap and unpleasant sort of "wink wink nod not" way of accusing someone of something without having to be accountable for doing so. If its original meaning was otherwise, then it's more so.