DeSantis’s Lost Cause

[Warp12]

So the non-persona should be able to tell us exactly what "off-the-rails' educational practices you think we need to talk about.

Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?

First, such would be struck as derails because individual topics already exist. Second, the fundamental issue here is with the policies of DeSantis, which revolve around a general concept of preventing the sort of irresponsible teaching that we supposedly agree should be avoided.

I am content that most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence, that this should be avoided, and that curricula should be well-regulated.

After that it is just the never-ending debate of liberal and conservative values.

 

[JoeMorgue]

See?

He literally can't do it. He doesn't any actual arguments to make.

 

[Foster Zygote]

This is "woke" education and wrong in the views of Republicans.

Also true regarding Native Americans, and pretty much anyone else less prone to sunburn than white people.

 

[Foster Zygote]

The above is practically a personal attack, suggesting that I am misrepresenting myself as being a conservative. Essentially you are calling me a liar.
Conservatives are real, you know. And they are not mostly the demonized group as depicted by resident libs. Most are very decent people that just don't ascribe to a liberal view of the world.

I'm definitely calling you a liar about your "freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children".

 

[Foster Zygote]

See?

He literally can't do it. He doesn't have any actual arguments to make.

It's like the chunky kid on the playground making excuse after excuse for not demonstrating the six foot vertical telescoping roundhouse kick that he still insists he is fully capable of. Everyone knows he can't. It's just a question of whether he'll admit he can't

 

[Stellafane]

Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?

Fair enough, your choice.

First, such would be struck as derails because individual topics already exist.

Not sure about that. It all falls under the umbrella of education, which after all is supposed to be about teaching students about reality. The issue is that there are many aspects of reality with which conservatives are unhappy -- it doesn't conform with the Bible, it's something they find embarrassing, etc. -- so they want to throw the blanket of "liberal bias" over those topics and remove them from the curriculum.

Second, the fundamental issue here is with the policies of DeSantis, which revolve around a general concept of preventing the sort of irresponsible teaching that we supposedly agree should be avoided.

Here is the disconnect. DeSantis isn't trying to remove "irresponsible teaching" from schools. He claims he is, but that's a lie. What he's really trying to do is prevent kids from learning things that he doesn't want them to, because it would make them more knowledgeable and able to think critically, and therefore less likely to vote for him and his party. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

I am content that most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence...

Agreed.

...that this should be avoided...

Probably impossible as long as teachers are humans. Besides, I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing if the biases more or less cancel themselves out. And in any case, there's very strong indication that conservative bias has had a far more profound impact on education than liberal -- I cited several examples in my previous posts.

...and that curricula should be well-regulated.

This is the scary and dangerous part. Well-regulated by whom, politicians who have no training in education, and whose ultimate agenda is not to eliminate bias but rather to prevent students from learning about a wide variety of subjects simply because they wish reality were different?

After that it is just the never-ending debate of liberal and conservative values.

This is the most disingenuous statement of all. It's not about liberal vs conservative, it's about reality vs fantasy. I'm sure DeSantis would love to have people believe it's about ideology, to get people to believe it's simply a political issue rather than what it really is, which is government-enforced ignorance.

 

[Norman Alexander]

There seems to be a misconception among conservatives that teaching certain facts means the teacher LIKES those facts and is PROUD of those facts. The corollary of that is multiple:
-- That facts can be judged to be "good" or "bad" on a political spectrum.
-- That the teaching of "bad" facts can be assigned to that end of a political spectrum denigrated or hated by the receiver.
-- That "bad" facts can then be ignored and dismissed.
-- That "bad" facts should NOT be taught to children.
-- That teachers and proponents of "bad" facts are automatically proponents of the receiver's hated end of the political spectrum.
-- That "good" facts can be made up whenever convenient without evidence or proof and still be considered valid.
-- That "good" facts, real or imaginary, possess almost religious righteousness, are unassailable, and are the sole property of the receiver's end of the political spectrum.

Just watch DeSantis and his ilk.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?

Just give us some concrete examples that establish a pattern of "freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children" by public school teachers.

First, such would be struck as derails because individual topics already exist. Second, the fundamental issue here is with the policies of DeSantis, which revolve around a general concept of preventing the sort of irresponsible teaching that we supposedly agree should be avoided.

First, no it wouldn't. You just can't provide any concrete examples.

Second, DeSantis hasn't provided any more evidence than you've been able to provide. He's a blowhard inventing a boogeyman to tell the rubes only he can save them from.

I am content that most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence, that this should be avoided, and that curricula should be well-regulated.

Remember that analogy about a prosecutor asking the jurors to look inside their hearts to see that the defendant is guilty after failing to provide any evidence against him? The above is like that same prosecutor acting like he's just presented an airtight case by asking the jury if they agree that criminals should be punished.

After that it is just the never-ending debate of liberal and conservative values.

It's like watching the world's worst slight-of-hand illusionist clumsily put a ping pong ball into his mouth and then show his empty hands to the audience while mumbling an incomprehensible attempt a "voilà!".

 

[Warp12]

First, no it wouldn't. You just can't provide any concrete examples that fit my liberal world-view.

FTFY. And 100% correct.

 

[sackett]

Many years, no, decades ago, when I still watched television (PBS only; and I don't care if you belive me or not), I saw a panel show that included Wm. F. Buckley. At the end, the panelists were asked to sum up their positions in 30 seconds. They all did so capably, except for

Yes, of course, Bill Buckley, who refused right snottily, declaring that more than 30 seconds of thought went into His Views, so you can just wait for awed comprehension to dawn on you. Smirk.

The same tactic and ones resembling it are in use today, but I'll be damned if I can ever find anybody but a right-wing buffed hole

excuse me, a conservative trying it on. In MAGAnese, it goes, "If I gotta asplain it, you woon't unnerstand it any ways."

I attribute that behavior to fright. Hope you don't think I'm cynical.

 

[Stellafane]

There seems to be a misconception among conservatives that teaching certain facts means the teacher LIKES those facts and is PROUD of those facts. The corollary of that is multiple:
-- That facts can be judged to be "good" or "bad" on a political spectrum.
-- That the teaching of "bad" facts can be assigned to that end of a political spectrum denigrated or hated by the receiver.
-- That "bad" facts can then be ignored and dismissed.
-- That "bad" facts should NOT be taught to children.
-- That teachers and proponents of "bad" facts are automatically proponents of the receiver's hated end of the political spectrum.
-- That "good" facts can be made up whenever convenient without evidence or proof and still be considered valid.
-- That "good" facts, real or imaginary, possess almost religious righteousness, are unassailable, and are the sole property of the receiver's end of the political spectrum.

Just watch DeSantis and his ilk.

This is pretty much it in a nutshell. Just look at the topics conservatives seem to define as the products of liberal bias and wish to suppress: America's racist history, sexuality outside straight male/female roles, science such as evolution and climate change. And yet nothing can alter the facts that the USA does indeed have a checkered history vis a vis racism, sexuality exists in many different flavors, evolution is 100% supported and understood, and the reality of climate change is beyond reasonable dispute. Those all are facts, but because conservatives wish they weren't true, they're trying to keep children from learning them.

And what has conservative bias attempted to drag into the classroom? Pseudoscience such as creationism, revisionist history such as a states-rights re-imagining of the Civil War, Christian values and beliefs, and (worst of all) enforced willful ignorance.

There's nothing balanced about this, no "both sides are guilty" argument to be made. Conservatives are the enemy of education, because an educated electorate is simply not in their best interest.

 

[Foster Zygote]

FTFY. And 100% correct.

Come on, Warp. Can't you do better than that? You've been challenged to provide evidence that fits your claims. If you could have, you would have by now. You're just trying to distract readers from the obvious conclusion that your argument is intellectually bankrupt - a knee-jerk reaction with no reasoning behind it, existing only to shore up your prejudices regarding social changes.

"I'd show you but it wouldn't make any difference" is on the woo-woo BINGO card, for ****'s sake.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"MOM! The Liberals aren't getting tweaked! Tell them to stop being so mean!"

 

[Warp12]

Come on, Warp. Can't you do better than that? You've been challenged to provide evidence that fits your claims. If you could have, you would have by now. You're just trying to distract readers from the obvious conclusion that your argument is intellectually bankrupt - a knee-jerk reaction with no reasoning behind it, existing only to shore up your prejudices regarding social changes.

"I'd show you but it wouldn't make any difference" is on the woo-woo BINGO card, for ****'s sake.

Wrong.

I'm just not interested in once again listening to liberals whine about slavery, conquered Indians, evolution and transgenders...I've been through it too many times.

 

[arayder]

So the non-persona should be able to tell us exactly what "off-the-rails' educational practices you think we need to talk about.

Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?

. . . most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence, that this should be avoided, and that curricula should be well-regulated.

So in a "well regulated" educational system necessary to educated our youth what "off-the-rails' educational practices you think we need to talk about?

I have lost track of how many times you have been asked this.

 

[dudalb]

Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?

First, such would be struck as derails because individual topics already exist. Second, the fundamental issue here is with the policies of DeSantis, which revolve around a general concept of preventing the sort of irresponsible teaching that we supposedly agree should be avoided.

I am content that most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence, that this should be avoided, and that curricula should be well-regulated.

After that it is just the never-ending debate of liberal and conservative values.

You keep on avoding giving specific examples of "irresponsible teaching". I wonder why.....

 

[Foster Zygote]

Wrong.

I'm just not interested in once again listening to liberals whine about slavery, conquered Indians, evolution and transgenders...I've been through it too many times.

"Later, at home, Warp stood alone in his room. He closed his eyes and took a deep breath, holding it for several seconds before slowly releasing it through his nose in a cleansing exhalation. His focus established, he opened his eyes and fixed his steely gaze on the battered tennis ball suspended from the ceiling a full six feet above the floor. It was nearly a foot over the top of his head. He looked briefly as though his attention had shifted to some internal subject, but a moment later, with no warning, no telegraph of impending action, he exploded into violent, yet precise and fluid motion. Launching himself vertically to an extraordinary height, he spun swiftly around his Y axis and his right foot collided with the tennis ball with such force as to break the cord suspending it in place, and causing it to strike the wall with enough velocity to bounce back and thud into the closed door on the opposite wall before arcing down to the floor and rolling under his bed. The sudden commotion was over as swiftly as it had begun, and he came to rest standing as calmly as he had been a moment earlier. From somewhere, a flourish played on a wooden flute. In his mind he heard the voices of the other kids dismissing his claims, and simply smiled to himself."

We all totally believe that you've got lots of examples of freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children by public school teachers. We also totally believe that you can't be bothered to show it to us because we'll just whine about slavery and genocide being bad. Oh, and about biology, apparently. Nobody thinks your argument is a joke.

 

[dudalb]

Wrong.

I'm just not interested in once again listening to liberals whine about slavery, conquered Indians, evolution and transgenders...I've been through it too many times.

SO you are just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "I DON"T HEAR YOU very loud.
Nice.

 

[dudalb]

I am begginning to think we are being trolled, folks.

 

[dudalb]

So in Warp12 view, schools should be allowed to throw out scientific facts and put fairy tales in their place?